deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 8, 2013 3:56:56 GMT -5
Ok guys I would like to share some ideas on just what an EMD SD49 would have looked like. Now starting with the time frame of this SD49. What I'm going to build is an SD49 from the very early 80's. Norfolk & Westerns SD50S models were produced in Dec. 1980. I'm going to make my SD49 build from this same time frame. Even Southerns GP39X's are November of 80 builds. So what I think so far would come out of EMD would be an SD49 on a 68' 10" frame with thick sills just like the SD50S. It could have the -2 blower hump or the newer angled one. We can choose that later too. I think (especially in this early 80's time frame) that EMD would still use the shorter 68' 10" frame for the reason that the SD49 uses a smaller 12cyl. engine. So for the frame it will be a Kato 68' 10" (SD38-2) frame with the triple clasp HTC trucks. I like the fact that the NW SD50S diesels came this way and so this build will also. Now here is what is up in the air for discussion and choice: I do think EMD would incorporate the newer style dynamic brake location right behind the cab like SD50's. I'm pretty sure that's the route I will take with this. Since 12cyl equipped EMD's usually have their engines pushed further back on the frame does the SD49 have porches like a -2? Im leaning towards this porch idea simply because of another area of thought. The radiator. Now I truly think the SD49 would have used the "GP" sized radiator. GP50's and SD50's obviously have different length radiators. I think the SD49 having only a 12cyl engine would have only needed the GP sized radiator. (KCS's SD40X demonstrators were actually built with GP50 length radiators.) The standard engine compartment for 12cyl EMD's has shifted to only 8 doors over the years. If the SD49 is to have 8 doors like I think it should this might also be the reason for porches instead of the ends of the car bodies being so close to the pilots like regular SD50's. Not porches as big as SD40-2's maybe but about half that length. Radiator door arrangements would be completely up in the air. I'm thinking of just keeping it simple and staying with the GP50's rad. doors. This build is now open for ideas and discussion and from there with all of your help, hopefully this will turn out to be a cool unique build. Remember, SD49's were in EMD's catalog. Sadly nobody ordered them
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 7:13:02 GMT -5
I've thought about building this many times and I agree with you on several points:
68'10" frame, with later style dynamic brakes like the SD50S. Porches as you say, but not 40-2 length, probably not even straight SD38/40 length but longer than a Geep. Radiators I thought of the SD50S's delivered to Australia with one older style Dash-2 radiator shutter ahead of a 50 series shutter, but probably Geep sized as you say because of the 12 cylinder prime mover. I also think a 50 series exhaust hatch is in order and probably a unique handrail arrangements on the short hood end to accommodate the new porches.
Haven't thought much about hood door arrangements and blower housing but blower housing could be either. The GP39X, GP40X, SD40X and SD50S all were produced with Dash-2 series blowers but the SD50S was given the angled blower after a short time and both MKT's phase III GP39's and Alaska RR's GP49's (same carbody) had the angled blower but not sure if they were built as late as 84' or earlier. So I'd probably say either, particularly if you wanted to model different phases of SD49, with early and late variants. Heck a real early variant could have phase I GP59/GP60 style dynamic brakes, or maybe that could be saved for the demonstrators?
Are anti-climbers road specific or would it be a toss up between late Dash-2 or 50 series types, or a mixture like on the GP40X?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Post by emd16645 on Nov 8, 2013 8:55:02 GMT -5
The first order of Alaska GP49s (4 units) were built 9/83, and the second order (5 units) was 5/85.
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Post by Randy Earle on Nov 8, 2013 12:20:27 GMT -5
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Post by jmlaboda on Nov 8, 2013 15:00:11 GMT -5
EMD maintained the 6 engine access doors that previously had been used on GP39s and GP39-2s on the GP49s and GP59s so I would suspect that the same would be done on an 12-cylinder locomotive produced with six-axles... rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=991619rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1613096The shorter length could have been a bit of an advantage, with the units being a little kinder to curves that were tighter than typically found on most higher speed main lines, thought he use of radial trucks was suppose to take care of such problems. Ironically the newer Dash-9s by GE have shown up on a number of Norfolk Southern branches without the benefit of radial trucks so I don't know if radial trucks would be worth the extra money vs the earlier trucks.
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 8, 2013 15:11:35 GMT -5
I've seen the old posts about the SD49. I've seen the drawings and have my own. I want to build off of a new collaboration of updated ideas from people who are now on this forum and are interested. I would like everyone to take into thought that they are the design team at EMD and review what past EMD practices are for a 12cyl locomotive from the early 80's. Take into consideration the time frame I'm speaking of and the "phase" that this early SD49 will be. Or maybe I should go with a 1983 phase with the longer frame and straight sills plus the angled blower. If you think about it. There is really barely any difference in the actual car bodies of the GP39X to the GP39-2's of MKT whichever were housed in GP49 bodies to the actual GP49's built for Alaska railway. The door arrangements and standard details are the same though out production. With that standardization I would believe that a later phase SD49 would be pretty much the same through out also. With the longer frame of a later phase maybe the porch gets a little bigger like 40-2's did over standard 40's. or maybe even a larger space between the dynamic housing after the cab and the clean air room. Kinda like GP39-2 ended up when they went to 8 engine room doors and the prime mover pushed back.
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 8, 2013 15:24:04 GMT -5
I really wish there even was some SD39-2's produced to go off of also. Does anyone know if SD39-2's were in EMD's catalog? I kind of also believe that since EMD's are more standardized that the GP49 car body would be just slapped onto an SD frame with maybe a little bit longer clean air room just like the difference in a GP40-2 to the SD40-2. The length & door arrangements of both car bodies are the same past the clean air room.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2013 18:52:47 GMT -5
I think that the six door arrangement, in keeping with the 39/49 series Geeps would be the most likely arrangement but I definitely say that the 68'10" frame would be a keeper. Thinking like I am a member of the EMD design team is how I always think about these types of builds, but rather than go straight for the 71'2" frame of the 50/60 series, as the design team, WE could opt for the 68'10" frame. The manufacturing process is already in place so we just continue the line. I've often thought about the SD49 as the replacement for the SD40-2 in the EMD catalogue. I know horsepower wise, it's actually a slight drop but with new wheel slip technologies and the research into 12 cylinder prime movers, it's feasible that it could have been marketed that way.
That being said, I think the precedent set by the 66' line and Dash-2 line with regards to the common frame does point to the 71'2" frame. The plus side about this is that the porches would likely stay, but the developmental model, call it an SD49X, (or like the SD50S was renamed, it could be the SD49S) could use the 68'10" frame. If you use the longer 71'2" frame then the extra 22" door should be included at the rear of the engine compartment, right before the radiator compartment just like the 50/60 series.
Maybe a developmental, demonstrator or pre-production (phase I) variant could be on a 68'10" frame and the production variant could use the 71'2" frame, developing the model in the same way as the 50 series. This seems to me to be the most logical development and would provide the increase in porch size like what happened when the 66' line was updated into the Dash-2 line.
Maybe we need to make a few phase variants, write down what we think would happen. If you looking to the 39 series SD's for inspiration I think the SD39-2 would likely have followed a similar progression to the GP39-2. Therefore, the SD49 should follow the GP49.
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dhm
Probationary Member
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Post by dhm on Nov 9, 2013 2:27:29 GMT -5
I've been lurking a little bit...I found this place looking for info on the SD49...and I apologize if this is repeat of a prior post/thread but several of the Alaska RR GP49s went to Chile and got 3 axle trucks...meter gauge I think...I live in Anchorage and chased the GP49s for years...built my first in about 1983..it was pretty crude and things got a lot easier when the GP40-2, 38-2, and GP50 frames and mechanisms became available...I ended up building a few for the tourist trade and used Ahearn bb GP50s with minor detail changes and removal and repositioning fo the radiator fans.
There are a few pictures of the Chilean "SD49s" out on some of the rail photo sites but not many and not detailed enough to use to build a model.
The AKRR GP49s had some unique features..particularly, when the railroad mounted snowplows on them they had to cut away the front steps...and replaced them with a ladder. It was the style of plow the railroad had...they had snow shields and exhaust lifters. The crews didn't like them...they were slow to accelerate and ended up being used mostly for hauling coal and gravel. They're hauling ore in Chile.
Most of my modeling these days is armchair...and lately what I've done was in On30..but I'm a diesel guy from way back. I'm impressed by the level of skill and and attention to detail you guys show...
Don
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 9, 2013 2:42:02 GMT -5
macbeast, you are right on with what I'm thinking about. Ok, I think now if I decide to go with the 68' 10" frame then this will be an SD49S build. Maybe I should do the 71' 2" frame and do a real 1983 production SD49. The SD49 I also think it should have the 8 normal engine room doors plus the one 22" last door. I'm going to try and do drawings of both. They will both have small porches. It just now seems natural that they will have this feature since they are 12cyl equipped.
Also, what is the length difference between GP40-2 and SD40-2 clean air rooms. I think the SD49 will have a similar length difference as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 6:59:12 GMT -5
dhm: cheers for the information. I to have heard the 49's were slow to accelerate; I can only assume this is due to the prime mover being pushed to its limits by upping the speed of rotation. I guess it would take longer to reach top speed and get the desired maximum output of the prime mover?
I'm not sure on the difference between the GP40-2 abd SD40-2 clean air rooms but surely you want the difference between those on the 50 series?
There should definitely be two varieties, let's call them; a pre-production SD39X or SD49S on a 68'10" frame with short porches and 6 engine compartment doors and triple clasp trucks, then the production version on the 71'2" frame with (in keeping with other models I think it should have) 6 engine compartment doors and the extra 22" door at the rear end. Porches still because of the longer frame and HT-C trucks.
What do you say deez?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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dhm
Probationary Member
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Post by dhm on Nov 9, 2013 14:06:07 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, the issue with the acceleration with the GP49s was related to a mismatch of the engine and the computerized control system...I'm grossly over simplifying but seems that was it, and it couldn't be fixed...Ive got a GP49 operators manual a friend at the railroad gave me....
one of my armchair project involves putting three axle trucks...SD40-2 or such, under a bb GP38-2/40-2/50 frame, and use a GP50 body as a starting point (Model Railroader and Mainline modeler both did articles on building a gp49; the MR article was actually for a Katy gp39-2)to construct a Chilean sd49...I would need some better photos than what Ive been able to find, and Im not sure how the SD trucks compare to the ones used in Chile...
Sound like you guys are brainstorming on a 49 series engine in a "stock" SD package ala SD382/-40-2/50/60....
Don
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 14:43:18 GMT -5
That's an interesting problem. Maybe because it's been simplified but seems like something that could've been sorted?
I like the sound of your Chilean SD39, are you modelling it as an HO model or ate you going narrow gauge? I've often thought about substituting an HT-C truck for the rear truck of a Geep to create a 5-axle oddity. I like the sound of what your doing, might have to keep that one in the back of my mind.
We are purely brainstorming an SD49 based on standard EMD practices but we started off with a bit more modellers license than standard practices and we've gone the other way.
Deez do you think we should stick with the 68'10" frame or just model some SD49S's and not do many production units?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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dhm
Probationary Member
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Post by dhm on Nov 9, 2013 17:41:54 GMT -5
yeah I don't know if the fix was too costly...or the problem was so imbedded in everything else it couldn't be undone, or that GM didn't care a lot because they were such a limited run...likely a mix of all three...
But...the 49s were a "version" of the GP50s...so if I were to do an SD49 in the standard package, Id use an SD50 and a guide for placement of the components, etc...with modifications like 2 rather than 3 Q fans. shortened radiator grilles, etc...new style blower housing. Snow shields would be cool...I liked what they did to the lines of the GP49s but they are really a cold weather thing..
don
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2013 18:04:19 GMT -5
Most people would make that likely assumption about the SD49 being like the SD50 but Deez and I like the SD50S andcits shorter frame.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards
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Post by emd16645 on Nov 9, 2013 19:37:55 GMT -5
Most people would make that likely assumption about the SD49 being like the SD50 but Deez and I like the SD50S andcits shorter frame. Sent from my GT-I9100 using proboards I would think that would depend on the time of production. I would expect that the earliest SD49s would follow the SD50S, while later units would follow the standard SD50. I'd love to see either version, although I'd be apt to model the later version.
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Post by ThoroughBreed on Nov 9, 2013 22:13:31 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much this info will help: The NW SD50S's were delivered in kit form to Altoona, PA. They were formatted to fit on SD40-2 frames. Hence the shorter wheelbase. The later versions of the SD50 and SD60 have the same wheelbase as the SD40T-2's, within inches.
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 9, 2013 22:25:47 GMT -5
I do like the shorter frame (demonstrators) alot more that production standard SD50/60's. I really think now that I should build a real production 71' 2" frame SD49. In a time frame of 1983. It'll have the larger square dynamic brake access doors. The standard size 50 series clean air room with the smaller inertial intake grill found on GP49's. the engine room will have the 8 doors plus the extra 22" door at the end. Radiator will be a standard GP50 section with of course two Q fans. Ill start the drawings tonight and post them then we can kick the concept around more. On another note I'd like to take one of those new Athearn GP39X's and make an SD39X out of it as soon as they are for sale on eBay.
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 9, 2013 23:28:06 GMT -5
Hey guys I was thinking also as I was browsing the SD50 drawings. I'd like to do a Phase 1 standard production SD49. Just like KCS's #704-713. They are on the 71' 2" frame but with the early blower hump and thick sills. I've always liked these units too. For standard SD50's they are still very unique.
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Nov 10, 2013 2:37:23 GMT -5
Ok here is my SD49 phase 1. I think this is a feasible representation of what the SD49 really could have been. Some of the KCS details are still there because I used the SD50 ph1 drawing but we can ignore that stuff. Let me know what you guys think.
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