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Post by tjmfishing on Feb 7, 2014 0:12:08 GMT -5
On one hand, I applaud Rapido for their work, as they have been filling many gaps in both the HO and N Canadian markets. Many of these models - including their rolling stock - are nearly impossible to kitbash. I was quite happy to see when they announced the VIA F4 as they are such an iconic locomotive for Canadians. I was completely stunned however when I scrolled down to the MRSP, a whopping $250 for a DC unit or $350 for a DCC sound unit. www.rapidotrains.com/f40.htmlDon't get me wrong, these guys seem to waste no expense in detailing but it it really worth an extra $75 or so per engine? Sure they look beautiful but I don't know too many guys that can afford more than one of these. Just want to make it clear I'm not trying to bash them...it just seems like in the last year especially that the sky is the limit for how expensive an RTR engine can sell for. I thought that the top line was pretty much $175 - which was the list price (give or take a few bucks) for the Genesis GP38's - the nicest locomotives I own hands down. Oh well, I've got four Kaslo etch kits to work with first thankfully:) |
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Post by iomalley on Feb 7, 2014 9:11:40 GMT -5
I think it will have no problem selling Taylor. Especially from the standpoint that one's layout doesn't need a fleet of them. I think this is a sign of things to come. China's labour prices are rising, and of course our models will feel the burden first. Top of the line is a moving (forward) number these days. I think you're going to see a return to kits when China's labour rates grow to the point that we westerners look to exploit another continent/country, like Africa. We can make the parts affordable in NA, we just can't build them. (Exactrail sales model)
I talked to Dan from Rapido about the sound cost aspect, joking that you're making the circuit board anyway, the sound component is probably another $5 in material, chip, cell phone speaker, etc. I was told the decoder itself is a $40 wholesale item and is kind of a monopoly price amongst the sound decoder manufacturers...kinda like gas stations, they all meet (with cigars and cognac) and discuss what we're going to pay for gas. They want to get paid well now, so when the copy cats flood the market, they will have filled their R&D coffers. And with the relative obscurity of our hobby, let's face it, there's no push for getting into a market of nickle-and-dime volumes of pirated sound boards...The Pirates are busy cracking mass consumer software/hardware.
I'm not sure I want one of those screamers on the layout with sound anyway...talk about monotonous!
If you have the skillz (and Taylor you do!) buy a Kaslo etch kit and superdetail a $100 Kato, or a $200 Kato sound equipped unit. Cuz between MBE, Kaslo, Microscale and Kato, you have everything you need to build one!
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Post by tjmfishing on Feb 7, 2014 9:44:19 GMT -5
I think it will have no problem selling Taylor. Especially from the standpoint that one's layout doesn't need a fleet of them. I think this is a sign of things to come. China's labour prices are rising, and of course our models will feel the burden first. Top of the line is a moving (forward) number these days. I think you're going to see a return to kits when China's labour rates grow to the point that we westerners look to exploit another continent/country, like Africa. We can make the parts affordable in NA, we just can't build them. (Exactrail sales model) I talked to Dan from Rapido about the sound cost aspect, joking that you're making the circuit board anyway, the sound component is probably another $5 in material, chip, cell phone speaker, etc. I was told the decoder itself is a $40 wholesale item and is kind of a monopoly price amongst the sound decoder manufacturers...kinda like gas stations, they all meet (with cigars and cognac) and discuss what we're going to pay for gas. They want to get paid well now, so when the copy cats flood the market, they will have filled their R&D coffers. And with the relative obscurity of our hobby, let's face it, there's no push for getting into a market of nickle-and-dime volumes of pirated sound boards...The Pirates are busy cracking mass consumer software/hardware. I'm not sure I want one of those screamers on the layout with sound anyway...talk about monotonous! If you have the skillz (and Taylor you do!) buy a Kaslo etch kit and superdetail a $100 Kato, or a $200 Kato sound equipped unit. Cuz between MBE, Kaslo, Microscale and Kato, you have everything you need to build one! Thanks for the complement Sean. I'm already way ahead of you, I picked up four of the etch kits and so far I have one Metra Kato F40 with the correct fans. |
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Post by tamaman on Feb 7, 2014 10:54:37 GMT -5
These units are more labour intensive to assemble, and more detailed then brass. A brass VIA F40 was on ebay maybe two months ago and sold for just under $1000.00. Is it safe to say building your own would cost $280 with all parts and paint? You are right though, it is still a lot of money.
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Post by iomalley on Feb 7, 2014 11:06:07 GMT -5
That depends, are you building it for yourself or to sell? You're cutting your own throat if you think you can compete with Rapido in that regard if you want to resell. If you're building it for yourself and you are qualifying your time with a dollar figure then no, probably not. (and shame on you in the process) But if you enjoy sitting at your desk building models, rather than burning braincells watching TV then you will hands-down beat RTR every day, and twice on Sunday in both budget and appearance. (with improving skill)
What really bugs me is if I put a fully superdetailed F40 built by the Brian B's, Dan D's or Mark R's (sorry to name drop, but you guys are awesome!) beside a Rapido, for the same price, most sheep would buy the Rapido. I don't know why that is, but a good painter will always trump factory paint IMHO. If you don't think so, look at the pad printing on all RTR models, if its opaque enough to not bleed thru background colour, you can catch a fingernail on the surface printing. You can layer 2 or 3 decals on top of each other and they won't ever appear thick and chunky on the surface.
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c415rock
Moderator
"Linking the East with the West"
Posts: 1,044
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Post by c415rock on Feb 7, 2014 14:18:40 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
I could not agree with you more on what you a saying, but there are some things to take into consideration.
First yes the price is high, but it is a exclusive to VIA and can only be purchased thru VIA. Jason was quoted as saying that VIA wanted to charge a lot more for the model but he explained to them that the model train market would not bear it. I am willing to bet they ( VIA ) looked at it like coffee mug or tee shirt. It cost X, so everything gets marked up X%. Which is fine when you are selling that kind of stuff.
Second thing is a give VIA credit for having the courage to commission someone to build a correct model. They could have mailed it in and just put a Brand what ever out there in VIA paint. I just hope the money from the sale of these engines stays with VIA and is spent wise. I know that is debatable with all the cutting they are doing, but that is a discussion for another time and place.
Erik
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Post by emd16645 on Feb 7, 2014 15:44:26 GMT -5
At this point the whole modern Canadian has been available from VIA, starting with the park cars a few years ago. It's natural that they would do the F40s as well. I'd agree that the prices are too high, but that's the way it goes.
I think Rapido announced in the last issue of MR that the Park cars are gonna be available through the normal channels (not through VIA) so that would suggest that the F40s will be the same in a few years.
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Post by tjmfishing on Feb 7, 2014 16:31:02 GMT -5
For sure Chris.
For now I think I'll stick to scratchbuilding a couple in the meantime - before they become available at shows and such.
Funny story on the scratchbuilding though, I know a guy who scratchbuilt a trio of the old AMM resin LRC coaches. He was running them at a show when Jason came along and asked him "how he liked the new Rapido coaches?" My friend said, "actually, they're resin cars that I flush cut each individual window out for and custom painted." Then Jason proceeds to tell him to throw them out and buy the new Rapido cars.
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Post by dablaze on Feb 7, 2014 16:47:53 GMT -5
The announcement for this engine is touted as a Via initiative, so the rights could be a little different than the coaches they have been offering.
Craig
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Post by tjmfishing on Feb 7, 2014 17:55:25 GMT -5
The announcement for this engine is touted as a Via initiative, so the rights could be a little different than the coaches they have been offering. Craig True, but they are selling the Budd cars through VIA. However - they have the tooling from La Canadien! |
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Post by iomalley on Feb 7, 2014 19:30:01 GMT -5
Jason's found a vein that uses public funds (your own tax dollars) to commission models, don't jinx it!  |
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Post by jakeloyst on Feb 7, 2014 20:59:34 GMT -5
Ive seen the previous offering, and yes, bit the bullet on the fp9s and a bunit. The a-units, I was late, and got the 54 version rtr, the b unit, got a painted one, also and unpainted (wanted to have a matching set, as I couldn't get an undec A) I also bit again on the GMD1s a fav or mine,but did the undec, and I will do the painting myself and add, probally something, not sure what. The price is climbing, not much we can do, but I still enjoy much more doing the extra, and in the end, having something that I built. I still applaud Rapido for the effort they are putting into getting the details right, and applaud them again for offering an undec version, which so many don't these days..... back to the bench now..
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Post by CP_8530 on Feb 8, 2014 2:48:24 GMT -5
That depends, are you building it for yourself or to sell? You're cutting your own throat if you think you can compete with Rapido in that regard if you want to resell. If you're building it for yourself and you are qualifying your time with a dollar figure then no, probably not. (and shame on you in the process) But if you enjoy sitting at your desk building models, rather than burning braincells watching TV then you will hands-down beat RTR every day, and twice on Sunday in both budget and appearance. (with improving skill) What really bugs me is if I put a fully superdetailed F40 built by the Brian B's, Dan D's or Mark R's (sorry to name drop, but you guys are awesome!) beside a Rapido, for the same price, most sheep would buy the Rapido. I don't know why that is, but a good painter will always trump factory paint IMHO. If you don't think so, look at the pad printing on all RTR models, if its opaque enough to not bleed thru background colour, you can catch a fingernail on the surface printing. You can layer 2 or 3 decals on top of each other and they won't ever appear thick and chunky on the surface. Awww, g'won  (even I'm not a total pro - I'm still playing around with getting the best gloss coat, a few times I've gotten that visible film effect, probably due to using too light of a gloss coat or not thinning it enough to flow better, but I digress...) I help out Rapido a bit with some of their R&D, and with the F40PH-2D (well, F40PH-2 on the builders' plates...) there was a lot of time and behind the scenes work to ensure everything was spot-on, or as close as can be in a 1:87 scale replica. I'm proud of the results, and of the work put in by those involved to get a truly Canadian model that was sorely missing to market. I'm not privy to a lot of the internal goings-on or business decisions, but Jason's explained about the F40 pricing scenario with VIA in the latest Rapido newsletter, and others have addressed the exclusivity with VIA, whose backing really helped propel this model to the forefront. Without giving too much away, there was some serious discussion involved back with the GMD-1 about pricing, and hesitation about rising the price to cover increased Chinese labour costs. Sometimes companies decide to eat the increased costs of one run in the short term to honour the original advertised price, but they can't keep doing it forever if costs keep rising, and eventually the next run comes out with a higher price. I'm not happy with the seemingly constant rising prices as much as the next person (seeing the second run of Bowser C630M's come out $30 higher than the first put a damper on acquiring more for me), but it is what it is I suppose. As for the LRC comment, well, I guess Jason's gonna try and sell his product. I've seen some of the AMM kits, compared to their SD40-2F the Kaslo kit is like brass, but in the hands of a capable modeler anything's possible. My personal bias is I'll always hold a model I've made in higher regard than any mass-produced one, partially due to the personal time and effort put in to make something unique of your own. But that's just me. |
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efram
Chairman
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Post by efram on Feb 8, 2014 8:06:00 GMT -5
I don't think $250 is out of line if you compare the fidelity of this plastic model with those made by Marklin, Fleischman, etc. I used to model European railroads and was happy to pay $250 for a locomotive and $375 for a DMU... and that was 10 years ago! Can't wait to see this thing in the flesh. "As for the LRC comment, well, I guess Jason's gonna try and sell his product. I've seen some of the AMM kits, compared to their SD40-2F the Kaslo kit is like brass, but in the hands of a capable modeler anything's possible. My personal bias is I'll always hold a model I've made in higher regard than any mass-produced one, partially due to the personal time and effort put in to make something unique of your own. But that's just me."- AMEN BROTHER |
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Post by tjmfishing on Feb 8, 2014 11:49:46 GMT -5
Awww, g'won (even I'm not a total pro - I'm still playing around with getting the best gloss coat, a few times I've gotten that visible film effect, probably due to using too light of a gloss coat or not thinning it enough to flow better, but I digress...) I have one word for that SD60 you just did - Stunning! You're definitely on that caliber Like I said Dan, I'm not trying to bash Rapido at all I just didn't understand the jump in price recently. They're doing some great models and when all is said and done by the end of the year I'll have a CN FP9A (and hopefully find a VIA one) two VIA FPA-4's and a B, two GMD-1's and some additions to my passenger cars. The F40 is a much needed model and should be a 100% model like their others. There's no doubt that he (and you now that I know) do their homework and I think if you looked at the releases most of the other companies have lined up for this year Rapido would be up at the top. |
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emdgp10
Probationary Member
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Post by emdgp10 on Feb 8, 2014 11:50:54 GMT -5
I think it's very worth the pricing, taking into mind that they have more detail than most engines including Genesis, AND online Genesis, Rapido has a thing called quality control. I can't wait to get a few....
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Post by beentherecnthat on Feb 9, 2014 20:54:15 GMT -5
A lot has to do with the price of labour in China (cost of eggs in China?). From what I heard, the tooling costs tripled between the time the F's were done and the GMD-1 was done.
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Post by tjmfishing on Feb 9, 2014 22:18:51 GMT -5
A lot has to do with the price of labour in China (cost of eggs in China?). From what I heard, the tooling costs tripled between the time the F's were done and the GMD-1 was done. Can anyone say "backshoring"? Or at least if this continues, production is going to move to India or somewhere like that. |
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rudy
Probationary Member
modelling Canadian and some US railroads
Posts: 18 
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Post by rudy on Sept 13, 2014 16:39:49 GMT -5
I ordered a new Rapido F40 and look forward to it arriving at my door. I currently have two ViaRail Walther's F's that I bought at swap meets for about 50 bucks each and modified moderately. I'm happy with them, but as you know I had to invest time into their painting and detailing. I guess the question is: How much is your modelling time worth?
Is the cost of a new loco worth it? For one unit, I'll say OK. for several? Nope, not for me. I think with Jason leading Rapido, you get what you pay for. Their products are pricey, but it's Canadian equipment I model. Rapido is the only Canadian authentic 'game in town'. So I support them on most products. BTW, my unit is non-sound. Eventually, sound will be added sometime when I win the lottery...
I will tell you what disappoints me about this model, it is that it won't be made with OPERATING ditch lights. Kato did it with N scale models years ago...Why couldn't Rapido do it with this new F40?
Kato used their 'light tubes' in N and they worked well. They also used them for HO. I think that for $250.00, Rapido could have done something about this. (I must be fair, I have not seen inside the new F40 shell. Perhaps it was not easily possible...But, I can't help asking why, or why not? |
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Post by enginseer on Sept 13, 2014 20:40:33 GMT -5
I personally applaude any manufacturer that puts the effort into offering a model locomotive of this caliber.
I try and support companies like this as I know how tough this market can be to make a living in.
I know I don't speak for everyone, but I think spending and extra fifty or hundred bucks to reward a company with this work ethic is worth it if only to ensure they continue making such products.
This company (and a few others that breathe this same rarified air) always get my support.
Especially if the people in charge are as forthcoming with data about production and costs as Rapido is. And I'm fairly confident these same folks wouldn't take me for a "ride" as I'm also fairly confident they know to which side their preverbial bread is buttered.
I have no problem buying two of these instead of buying three locomotives of lesser build quality.
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(even I'm not a total pro - I'm still playing around with getting the best gloss coat, a few times I've gotten that visible film effect, probably due to using too light of a gloss coat or not thinning it enough to flow better, but I digress...)
