Naming a rebuild and something different???

[Deleted]

Hi guys, in need of a little help here, particularly from modellers of NS and CR.

Firslty, in amongst my plethora of projects I am planning to use some spare parts to construct a new loco, using the frame, walkway, battery boxes, cab and the forward end of a Kato SD45, mated to the long hood shell of a Kato SD40. It is going to be an NS unit so I can use my new HorsesHead decals despite these being to modern for what I do, but this is a bit of fun!

The idea is that maybe some collision damaged or OOS units were chopped together to create a serviceable unit, an SD45 frame with a 16-645 prime mover and SD50/SD60 style dynamic brake compartment behind the cab and traction control software.

What do I call this? If it was an NS creation the obvious choice would be SD45M, as per the convention used on its other rebuilds: SD9M; GP38M etc... However, this unit will have had changed internals and recent Juniata creations have been named differently: SD40E; SD60E. These are capital rebuild programs with significant imrovements.

That said if the unit were rated at 3500/3600hp on 16 cylinders then it could be considered an SD50S, or and SD50-2S, or SD50S-2 or even -3? Could it even be an SD50SE?

So I would like to enlist your help, what do I call my unit? I look forward to your suggestions and anything I haven't considered is as welcome as the ideas I have outlined. If you can even consider a entirely different scenario for the loco that would also be interesting to see.

[Raeder]

I would say PR43C would be the name, but...your call.

www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?mid=1245

The PR43C is a Progress Rail rebuild, Caterpillar powered, based on the idea that if you repowered the less-than-stellar SD50 series, you'd have a decent locomotive. Aside from the different radiator section, this unit is pretty much what you're talking about, right down to the new NS paint scheme. NS is running several of the units, and what parts you have handy might work for building the unit.

[sgoti]

Well, PR43C is for Progress Rail 4300 HP, Caterpillar powered and/or C trucked.

Do you have a rebuild shop that will be contracted out for the rebuilds? Perhaps that would be a start.

Personally, I like the horsepower directly relating to the model designation, as in U30C, C36-7, B40-8, PR43C, or GP22ECO. Instantly lets you know "how many horses are under the hood".

Being and EMD fan, I'm slightly more partial to "SD" designations for six-axle and "GP" for four-axle locos. However, this could lead to confusion with EMD-built locos, so perhaps a "C" designation is in order.

So... JC35/36?

[antlorch]

I would like to see a mock up if you have this engine in large components ready to be put together. I am not sure if the dynamic brake section would work with the straight SD40 hood on the SD45 frame (if I understand you correctly). That's the reason for the added length to the frame on the SD50/60 series.To do the dynamic brake section like the SD50/60 I think you need at least an SD40-2/T-2 frame.

MK did some rebuilds for the SP back in the early 90's and they actually did the conversion of adding the GP40 radiator section to an SD45 body and replacing the engine with the 645.

This is just me brainstorming so don't take it wrong please, this is MODEL railroading so anything you can dream up is worth building. Please share and maybe with a vision of your build a name might be easier to come up with.

[danielsokyrail]

I would follow the same renaming order as ns did. Like the old sd50 locos they built into sd40e units. Why not call it a sd40em or sd40es?

[Deleted]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys, this is great stuff.

I had hoped to avoid the PR43C as it is a Cat powered rebuild and I had an EMD prime mover in mind as the idea stemmed from wreck rebuilds from existing equipment. I also wasn't intending to rebuild the radiator compartment with flared radiators but I will have an SD45 shell spare that I have removed from this frame so it wouldn't be hard to do.

Going back to what antlorch said though I wanted to avoid flared radiators by using the SD40 shell, placed as far back as the SD45 shell would have been so that there is no porch, this is where the extra length for the new DB compartment comes from. I was initially thinking a 12-645 rated at 2800hp but when I checked the shells there wes a lot more wiggle room so I need not shorten the long hood shell. I will try post a mock up phot later so you can see what exactly I am thinking.

JC35/36 had come to mind as it is a Juniata rebuild but then NS didn't use this convention on any previous models so I was looking for an SD designation. SD40ES sounds like it could be a great idea, like danielsokyrail posted it is closer to the NS conventions. The SD40EM would be 'enhanced''modified', so wouldn't really work but 40 would match the horsepower rating of a 16-645 just like the SD40E.

SD40ES is sounding like a front runner, then it could fit right in with the SD40E's that Juniata is pushing out.

[c415rock]

Hi,

This is a easy one, the actual prototype of which ten were built is classified as a SD40M-2.

They were rebuilt in 1994 for SP by MPI. They are SD45's with SD40 car bodies, upgraded electronics, and prime movers reduced from 16 cylinders to 12 cylinders.

Here is a link to the espee railfan site, with detailed walk around photos.

espee.railfan.net/picindex/sd40m-2_walkaround/index.html

Erik

[Deleted]

Hey you know I hadn't even considered the SD40M-2, though I am aware of it. Of course there will be slight differences as I intend not just to change the radiator section but th ewhole long hood and add an SD50/60 style DB compartment, would you still consider that and SD40M-2?

[Deleted]

Oh I forgot. Correct me if I am wrong but weren't the SD40M-2's reduced from 20 to 16 cylinders, not 16 to 12? I thought they basically became SD40-2's to reduce the fuel consumption of the SD45?

[c415rock]

Thanks for pointing that out, it would be deregulated from 20 cyl to 16cyl.

After some more research, I found out that the units were either deregulated or replace with 16 cylinder engines.

As for the SD40M-2 classification I think you would be just fine. I also learned that SP had other SD40M-2 that were SD45 with GP40 engine rooms, DB, and radiator sections. One other note when MPI rebuilt these SD40M-2 they had to reconfigure the engine compartment doors for the new engines. So if you look at the door arrangement on a MPI built SD40M-2 you will noticed that the doors do not match a regular SD45.

MPI used what ever components they could get there hands on to complete the order. So in all reality they were prototype kitbashers.

Sorry about that brain fart on the engines.

Post some photo's when you can, this unit sound like it will be a interesting build.

Erik

[Deleted]

I'm having problems understanding the procedure for multiple phots but here is a quick mock-up I did, couldn't get it on the chassis because the shell mounting lugs are in the wrong place so there is the first obsticle to overcome.

You have to image the DB compartment in the phots as a non-DB hatch and the gap between the cab and the inertial air filter compartment having the newer style DB's.

I am not surprised MPI had to rearrange things, I have had a few moments of realisation looking at this, its amazing just how different the long hood are on the SD40 and the SD45. It's not just about flared radiators.

[antlorch]

You know what would be cool (if you haven't already put this thing together) is take the dynamic brake off the SD40 hood, get an Athearn non-dynamic brake hatch, cut the exhaust stack off the top,build a different exhaust like what the PR43C's have and install the entire hatch backwards. Do all the rest the same and you can say it was repowered with if a Cat engine. Since it is a make believe engine anyway. Call it a J31C..... J=Junieta,31=3100hp,C=six axles...

Oh well just a thought. I was sitting here brainstorming.

[Deleted]

Wow, I think you might have just sparked me off again! I have settled on an SD40ES and started cutting and arranging my shells, however, I have another complete SD45 and a few assorted parts including various dynamic brake blisters and exhaust hatches.

If this project goes well and moves off the bench early enough I may get to move onto doing something with that as I have, as yet no idea what to do with it as SD45's doesn't really fit my theme. Maybe I could cut that one up and re-arrange it with some other parts and see what a J31C would look like?

Thanks for the inspiration.

[georgiaroad]

There is always this idea...The Revolution Series dealt with some of the same frame problems you are talking about. Rebuilding a SD40 or SD40-2 does not create all that big an issue, but when you add the longer SD45 or the T-2 versions, there is a lot of space left over. The final decision was to just leave the extra space at the rear. Since NREX had a tunnel motor they rebuilt with a standard SD40-2 hood, the real world proved an odd but readily available prototype.

[georgiaroad]

As for the even longer SD50 or SD60 frames, there were trial and error attempts before I came to something usable. As emissions requirements get more stringent, the need for extensive cooling revision and increase is paramount. The SD50 SD60 does give the extra radiator length to install particle arresting intercooling and control without a large flare. The SD55 became the TGX program's answer to doing a cost effective rebuild with the average 3000-3500hp range.

[georgiaroad]

In my case, I wanted to model a freelance version of what is going on it the real world. GE has its Evolution series, and as Anthony pointed out, Progress has its 'Progress Rebuild" program. Stephens Railcar is my own freelance rebuilder, basically giving my bench a name (you should see all the half finished projects lined up--looks like the back tracks at VMV or NRE). The TGX stands for Third Generation Xtreme rebuild Pr, noting the fact that these are not rebuild in kind, but something new that meets the current and impending emissions standards set by the EPA. I used half steps in model numbers to get the units such as SD55, SD65 and SD75. The SD40ME is out of sorts because the SD45 already exists as a EMD model. The whole series became the "Revolution" in modern rebuilds, hence the Revolution Series.

For your unit, I like the idea of a SD46E or SD44E or something along those lines.

Look forward to seeing how your completed rebuild looks.

H in AL

[Deleted]

Here is a phot of my progress so far. I stalled a bit today as I needed to go out so it will be continued tomorrow or later in the week.



I am going with the SD40ES idea, an NS product that is akin to the SD40E program running at Juniata. It's and SD45 frame, nose and cab, SD40-2 long hood minus a small length off the front end and I will fill the gap with a more modern DB hatch. Also waiting on C&C roof stock to make a new long hood section where the DB's used to be, this will include an SD50S style turbo exhaust hatch. As you can see on my model the space between the cab and the DB hatch is a bit slim but otherwise this fits well enough.

You should be able to make out the SD40-2 walkway that is left over, plus the cab and nose frome another SD40-2 and the long hood from this SD45 placed on top to check the fit, which, is sitting at the back of the bench. This is not another project (YET!!!) but your SD55ME-CAT has really got me thinking. I love the new fittings on the inertial air filter compartment and the flared radiator and fairing that is akin to that on the C&NW SD45's that lacked DB's! This is something I've wanted to model but is out of my region and era. However, watch this space as that SD55ME-CAT looks like a tempting project.

I saw images for your TGX GP65M, SD65 and SD65M a few years back in the results of some web search I did, can't remember what it was for. Whats the story behind these TGX products?

[drgwguy]

I like your thought process on this build! Also, I am kinda partial to it's designation as an SD40SE rather than SD40ES. Just my thought.

Rick

[georgiaroad]

The TGX Program started with the SD65-SD65M and GP65M about ten years ago. At the time, I was looking for something to create a third generation rebuild out of SD50 and GP50 cores. These were being retired in large numbers by UP and CR and I could not help but think a reliable rebuild of the 50 series could be something that could happen in the real world. These were known as the Series One rebuilds, and were basically speciified as a rebuilder equivalent of the EMD SD70M. Around the time I really got into developing the idea with a partner on the PFMSIG board, EMD stepped up to meet the EPA Tier 1 standard with the EMD SD70M-P2 (flared radiator). As a result, the design was stepped up to meet Tier 1 standards also, creating the 65 units using aftermarket EMD 710 primemovers replacing the old 645 blocks. When UP posted the 1000 unit order, Stephens Railcar found it could not get the 710 blocks with any frequency and the program stalled in the wake of the double whammy of shortage of parts from EMD and the looming recession of 2008-2009. To add insult to injury, the EPA standard was set to go to Tier 2 with Tier 3 soon to follow. the marketing hook of the Series One was the fact that the unit was not a in kind rebuild, but could meet the higher standards as they progressed. At the time, rebuilds were exempt from the EPA standard change, but there was much concern that they would be made retroactive to ALL rebuilds other than capital overhauls. The fact that some states like California and Texas offered incentives for "clean" diesel power allowed railroads to gain credits for buying these units even in a depressed economy. The TGX Program faced being starved out or regulated out of existance. The Revolution was the next logical step from the Series One rebuild Porgram. It was originally called the TGX-E Program (E for Enhanced Cooling). It was soon changed to the TGX Revolution Series since these rebuilds revolutionized the way rebuild locomotives were marketed. (the ironic thing is my ideas were about four years ahead of the Progress Rail program, though I have to say that program actually gave me a prototype example of how the units should be designed). EMD then was spun off from GM and the 710 replacement engines went on the market as the 710-ECO rebuild. By this time the Revolution Series had settled on CAT power to give the units a high horsepower and matching Tier 3 capability (though marketed as Tier 2 Plus since the standard was still sketchy at the time). The purchase of EMD by CAT has made for some sticky issues, especially when Progress Rail and EMD both fell under CAT ownership. Lucky for Stephens Railcar, there is an ironclad agreement with CAT to provide the primemovers, hence the -CAT added to the series model number. Other than the engine and alternator, the rest of the design is proprietary and is bound together by the MAXTRAXX 2 microprocessor control system and radiator design.

The original TGX Series One Program included a set of Demonstrators called the "TT2" or Triple threat Two used to market the original program wares. The GP65M was the four axle unit which could come from any second or third generation EMD. The SD65 was a standard cab and the SD65M was the high end SD65 with the North American cab and all the bells and whistles, so to speak. The Series One Program was superceded by the Revolution Series at the onset of EPA Teir 2 standards and dropped from the catalog.

TGX dabbled in GE core rebuilds during the transition. The SD44-9CAT was built from GE Dash Seven units. With all the GE Dash 7 and early Dash 8 cores either finding their way to scrappers or overseas service, they were never actively pushed since core acquisition could be a major issue on a large order. These units wound up in the Stephens Railcar (SRCX Leasing) fleet before being sold to regional Florida & Gulf Coast RR. There is talk of doing a SD44-9ESD version using B40-8 and C40-8 cores. The unit would use the GE EVOLUTION series Tier 2 radiator and the CAT primemover.

[georgiaroad]

The SD44-9CAT precursor design...