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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 9, 2015 1:08:12 GMT -5
Sorry lads, for the somewhat cryptic subject line... As you all may have figured out, I've got a severe Milwaukee Road 'fetish'... As it is, I'm working on a freelance system (on the paper that is), the same as one of my best friends back in the my old hunting grounds....at the moment, I think that I've got the colours down, only the name that's missing....
I have made a list of ideas so far;
Pacific & North Western Midwestern Family Lines Pacific & Great Western Pacific Coast Line Milwaukee Midland System/Railroad/Railway (I just had to have a Milwaukee in there!)
Most likely I'll come up with other names to pick from....
Still trying to nail it down in the geography, decide what traffic to have, should I deal with ore or coal, I love mountain railroading, but then.....can I have 'hot' high-speed freights, a lot to think about, we can't have it all, can we?
I'm also looking at some of my favorite railroads to see how they did things, like buying their locomotives, trade ins, cash, second hand, etc., etc.. I don't think that it'll be as wealthy as N&W, who, if I remember correctly, bought a lot of their locomotives with cash...
What I do know, which was decided early on, this will mainly be a EMD/Alco railroad, with an occasional FM/BLW switcher or so, nothing major...
This is also a company with their own railroad shops, they didn't build their own steamers like N&W, Reading, D&H etc, but well equipped enough for heavy repairs and rebuilds, which I've some SD24 and C424/C425 cabs for a upgrade program, new electronics and engines...need to keep the shop workers busy and happy, right?
Time period is not really pinned down either yet, all I know is that it'll be before -76 and Conrail, might settle down for somewhere in the 60's...
Anyhoo, if I've missed something, suggestions etc., are more than welcome...
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Post by enginseer on Jan 18, 2015 8:55:54 GMT -5
Sounds like some interesting ideas.
I would think you'd like to nail down your main route first before coming up with a name for your road, but that's just me.
I'm still sorting out my freelance and have no clue what to do yet.
Midwestern and Pacific sounds kinda "classy". Kinda close to some other names, but different enough to stand on its own.
Milwaukee and Western? Nice big MW instead of a NW like Norfolk and Western.
Lol, just some thoughts.
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 18, 2015 16:03:18 GMT -5
Milwaukee & Western? Hmmmmm.....that one needs to be added to the list, definitely! Yip, one thing that I'm trying to nail down, my main route, gonna have to get a few, or one, decent map for that....
All thoughts and ideas are very much welcome and appreciated!
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Post by enginseer on Jan 18, 2015 19:04:19 GMT -5
Funny, the more a friend and I think about it, Milwaukee and Western does sound pretty cool.
That same friend of mine has a freelance based out of Minnesota and calls it the "Sioux Line".
I thought that name was pretty clever.
If you were making it a modern line, just think of all the coal and petroleum cars you could have considering the oil boom in the Dakotas.
Maybe even call a line the "Black Gold Route". Considering The Milwaukee Road's colors, you could make something playing off of that slightly.
Just a ton of possibilities.
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 18, 2015 22:54:49 GMT -5
Definitely a cool any classy name! I agree, the more that I think about it, Milwaukee & Western, the more I like it! As for the others, I think that I'll keep some of them, but make them into subsidiaries to M&W, with their reporting marks on the cabs, below the numbers, like some other companies... Cheers Miles!
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 21, 2015 5:47:18 GMT -5
At the moment, I'm toying with the idea, that high grade iron was discovered in Michigan, 1876, which lead to the creation of Michigan Interstate Railroad, a future subsidiary of Milwaukee & Western (thanks again Miles!), question is, is this possible, suggestions?
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Post by enginseer on Jan 22, 2015 8:32:23 GMT -5
Discovery of high-grade iron ore in Michigan would have completely changed the complexion of the UP for the period leading up to WW2. Most HG deposits were exhausted by that time in the US. So I guess the question is, how big was the Michigan discovery? And how far did that deposit make it into the 20th century? The thing is, a discovery of the magnitude required to have an effect on anything later in the 20th century would have had to have been HUGE. The ramifications to this are also huge. Still, anything is possible, but my guess is had this happened and the Michigan road been created, the Michigan road would have been the dominant road in the area imho. WW2 would have cemented its position and the post-war growth would have carried its dominance into the 60's The slump in the 70's would have hit the road hard I think, but considering the other high-grade ore deposits in other parts of the world are in fairly inhospitable places (Brazil, Guinea, Australia and most recently, the Baffin Island discovery.) The road would have carried itself well into our era. I think your Milwaukee and Western would have benefited tremendously from the Michigan road. Perhaps, by the railroad consolidation era, the Milwaukee and Western would have re-absorbed the Michigan road much like Canadian national has done over the years with it's subsidiaries like GT. I think a reduced scale Canadian National/GTW model would suit you well. As a Michigan guy, I'm a long time fan of Canadian National, so I'm a little biased. Just some thoughts.
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milw199
Superintendent
Beaded crossbucks FTW
Posts: 180
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Post by milw199 on Jan 23, 2015 15:01:43 GMT -5
The iron ore discovery in 1876 would have been quite early. At that point, the iron in Minnesota hadn't been discovered yet. The best around was around Iron Ridge, WI, and a bit north, which the MILW and a narrow-gauge line served.
There was a line from Milwaukee north to Green Bay and the UP called the Milwaukee & Northern. The MILW did end up buying this line around 1910 or so. Ore trains came from the UP to Chicago area to go to the mills in the winter when the lake boats couldn't operate.
Your wish list is pretty close to the actual MILW... Mountains, iron ore, fast freights, large shop complex, mostly EMDs, some ALCos, and the biggest FM fleet outside of the PRR (FM was on-line).
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 24, 2015 6:43:36 GMT -5
Cheers gentlemen, appreciated as always! I only picked 1876 because the Mesabi Iron Range, the largest of the four major iron ranges in the Iron Range region, where it was discovered in 1866, I think...but as everything else, nothing is written in stone....lol Me think mileage, around 400-450, would that be a medium sized iron ore railroad or...? Roster....SD24's and Alco C628/C630's and maybe.....a handful of Trainmasters. Have to admit, the Milwaukee Road is fair bit of inspiration, but also some of my other favourite railroads....
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 26, 2015 9:48:05 GMT -5
Any idea why C&NW replaced their H16-66's in their ore traffic, with ex N&W Alco C628's in the mid the 70's ('75?), instead for more modern EMD power?
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 28, 2015 2:36:42 GMT -5
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Post by poweredby251 on Jan 29, 2015 2:23:03 GMT -5
The CNW had a severe motive power shortage in 1972 and going into 1973. They leased and borrowed power from anyone they could during that time. They leased the N&W C-628's and C-630's with almost the entire fleet on CNW rails at some point in time. N&W was less than pleased with the C-628 units, and after the lease was up offered the CNW a steal deal on locomotives that were less than 10 years old at the time. CNW was impressed enough with their experience with them that they bought the lot. The CNW could have gotten the C-630's as well, but opted not to. The C-628's were used for several years in general freight service on the ex-CMO mains from St Paul to Chicago and Omaha. On the CNW, the C-628's gained a reputation for their lugging power and were actually still pretty reliable, so they were tasted on the ore lines and proved successful. By 1980, the CNW moved the remaining 4-axle 251 powered Alco fleet up north to work alongside their big brothers. This allowed centralization for all their Alco parts and repairs. As for big EMD's, when later looking for replacements for the C-628's they tested some of their SD-60's, which were less than stellar.
During the 1972-1974 time frame, many other leased loco's were seen on the CNW. LASCO RSD-12's originally from C&O were used for several years, and various PC power was seen. I have seen pictures of D&H C-628's on line, as well as just about anything UP including more than a few U-50-C's.
Any idea why C&NW replaced their H16-66's in their ore traffic, with ex N&W Alco C628's in the mid the 70's ('75?), instead for more modern EMD power?
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 29, 2015 8:16:14 GMT -5
Thank you ever so much for that reply, very much appreciated! At the moment, I'm thinking that Michigan Interstate bought 7 or 9 H24-66 Trainmasters, which were later relegated to yard service, when more modern units was developed and purchased.. Alco C628 seem to be a safe card, I don't know how reliable the stronger C630 and C636's were, with their more powerful engines, would the C628 be the way forward, or should I go for the C630's? Where I'm at now, I'm thinking SD9's, SD24's and C628 or C630's for the roadservice, with the H24-66 doing the switching, how does that sound, would it work?
As always, any and all comments, ideas and suggestions are appreciated!
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Post by poweredby251 on Jan 30, 2015 1:41:10 GMT -5
Actually, most dedicated ore roads, smaller lines owned by the mine or the large steel companies, stuck with the lower horsepower units. Speed was not a requirement for ore transport, especially back in the 50's and 60's. Many roads used EMD SD-7/9/18 and then SD-38's or Alco RSD-4/5/12's. Of course oddball fleets emerged as well. Oliver Mining used a lot of cow-calf units from EMD, as well as Baldwin and Alco. Erie Mining used a fleet of F-9's, RS-11's and S-12's, with a few oddball units mixed in.
DMIR stuck with the SD formula with the exception of 6 RSD-15's that later went to BLE and then Cartier, and 10 ex-UP C-630's purchased in the 70's that also ended up on Cartier. DMIR did host an extensive test of H-24-66 demo units, but ultimately decided to lay with the lower powered SD-9's. The Alcos were merely temporary fixes for power shortages. The RSD-15's were ordered because EMD had a long delivery time for the ordered SD-18's.
If you wish to use the Alco's and Trainmasters, here's a thought. Many iron hauling roads like the DMIR used big steam into the late 50's. I'd dieselize between the yards between 1950-1955 with EMD cow-calf sets, and between 1953 and 1957 with the SD-9's and Trainmasters for the road trains. Skip the SD-24, or finalize dieselization with a few in 1958. By the early 60's the switchers have proven to be under powered for the traffic, and many are retired with SD-9's doing the heavy yard work, in turn being replaced on the road with some C-628's. Retirements for the Trainmasters is started as well, with C-630's. The retired H-24-66's can be recycled as slugs, traded in on the Alco's, or both. Perhaps reusing the old FM trucks, like the N&W did on some of their C-630.
John
Thank you ever so much for that reply, very much appreciated! At the moment, I'm thinking that Michigan Interstate bought 7 or 9 H24-66 Trainmasters, which were later relegated to yard service, when more modern units was developed and purchased.. Alco C628 seem to be a safe card, I don't know how reliable the stronger C630 and C636's were, with their more powerful engines, would the C628 be the way forward, or should I go for the C630's? Where I'm at now, I'm thinking SD9's, SD24's and C628 or C630's for the roadservice, with the H24-66 doing the switching, how does that sound, would it work? As always, any and all comments, ideas and suggestions are appreciated!
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 30, 2015 6:04:12 GMT -5
Thanks John, very much appreciated mate! I was thinking the last mainline steam on Michigan Interstate, was in August of '59, with the fire being dropped for the last time in one of their 2-8-8-2 's. Milwaukee & Western takes over in '62.... I like the idea with the cow-calf sets, seen some interesting on Milwaukee Road, cow-calf and cow-calf-calf.... SD9's and Trainmasters in that time period, yip, definitely could go for that, can always upgrade the SD9's later, as I've got low nose SD24 and C424 cabs sitting about, should make for some interesting rebuilds...maybe, as you say, swapping trucks like C&O did on their SD18's was it? Didn't FM and Alco have better, stronger, traction motors than EMD, or do I remember wrong?
30 Alco C628's... 15 Alco C630's... 50 EMD SD9's... 20 FM H24-66's... 20 EMD SD24's... 8 EMD TR4A-B...
Would this be a realistic roster?
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Jan 30, 2015 21:45:51 GMT -5
Didn't FM and Alco have better, stronger, traction motors than EMD, or do I remember wrong? 30 Alco C628's... 15 Alco C630's... 50 EMD SD9's... 20 FM H24-66's... 20 EMD SD24's... 8 EMD TR4A-B... Would this be a realistic roster? ALCO used GE traction motors and generator/alternators which made their units good pullers. I like the roster especially the ALCO's.
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Jan 31, 2015 10:01:12 GMT -5
Cheers RN, appreciated! Saw these FM trucks on ebay, I imagine that it'll take some elbow grease, to fit them to the P2K SD9's...
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milw199
Superintendent
Beaded crossbucks FTW
Posts: 180
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Post by milw199 on Feb 1, 2015 13:06:57 GMT -5
I would lean against the FM Trainmasters in yard service. The walkways are high, and the ladders on the ends are straight up. Not comfortable for the crews using those features on a regular basis. Also, the FM trucks were a bit hard on the track. Add in no new ones since 1950-something, so parts are hard to find, and you can see why they fell out of favor. You would also need a big shop to handle repairs, as many engine repairs require taking out the top crankshaft, for example to change a power assembly.
EMDs don't need all that, a power assembly swaps out in about 4 hours or less. The Flexicoil trucks ride decent, and can get big engines over less than premium track without incident. The brake rigging is out in the open, easy to adjust and change shoes. FMs and ALCos pretty much require a pit to get to the ones behind the equalizers and so forth.
The FM trucks also sit a lot higher than the EMD trucks, so they wouldn't really fit well on a model. Also, the Flexicoil bolster is pretty much centered over the middle axle, whereas the FM and ALCo trucks are a tri-mount, with a offset bolster.
C&O SD18 were built with trade-in ALCo trucks from RSD4-5s. That might have been their downfall, poor ride, hard to maintain, and I think frame modifications to fit them.
Most six-axle engines of a similar weight pull about the same. Higher horsepower enables faster speeds. Mineral service isn't usually about high speed, it's about getting the goods to the docks reliably.
With a smaller road like you are planning, a one-builder roster can make sense. ALCo switchers and RSD5s for the early years, then C628s and C630s for bigger road power as they become available. I would shy away from FMs, or else make it all FM, like VGN. All-EMD is another option. At this point in time decent models are available for all your options.
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Post by Milwaukee Road 513 on Feb 1, 2015 13:43:36 GMT -5
Thanks Mike, tremendously appreciated! So, the Trainmasters would be early victims then, being traded in for more modern Alco/EMD power? By the sounds of things, that could be very likely, weren't they built between '53 and '57 or something, maybe they could traded in for Alco RSD-12's, RSD-15's or SD18's, if we say that we bought them in '53 and they turned out to be a nightmare.... Do you think that the SD24's were too heavy for the RSD-4/5 trucks?
Again, thanks all and everybody for your input!
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dave
Road Foreman
Modeling the Mid Atlantic in the late 80s
Posts: 90
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Post by dave on Feb 1, 2015 17:10:39 GMT -5
As for the date, I'd go with sometime around 70-72, You'd get not only all the pre-conrail east coast rolling stock, plus you'd get BN Green and some of the later pre-BN predecessor Rolling Stock.
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