Help needed in designing a realistic roster

[reece202]

I'm attempting to create a roster for my Cincy Route Transportation, and I need advice on how realistic the collection of motive power is.

Era:1982-1995 [Operations will swing from one end of that spectrum or the other depending on my mood that day ]

The CRT is the result of a Chessie-style merger in 1973 of three roads, two of which had already been parent-subsidiary since before diesels. The Charleston, Norfolk & Cincinnati RR [Parent] and Carolina Northern RR [Subsidiary] were High Hood roads, and the Southern Ohio RR wasn't.

System Map


Proposed Locomotive Selection
CNC/CNR + post merger units
GP7
GP9
GP30
GP35
GP40
GP38-2
SD9
SD35
SD40
SD45
SD40-2
SD50
SD60M
SW1500
MP15DC
U23B
U30B
U36B*
B30-7
B32-8
C40-8
C40-8W
RS3
C420
C630
*2 units of the Auto-train order. The others of that order ended up on Conrail

SOHRR pre-merger
GP7
GP35
GP38-2
SD40
U25B
U30B
U33B
U30C
C420
C430
C628
C630

I'm pretty sure that the Alco's and maybe some of the U-boats would have been scarce past the mid 80's, but other than that I'm not sure what could/should be added/removed.

[spike]

First come up with a history. Try to think of what would have been used. If you like Alco, why not. D&H was still a class I in the 1980s.Canadian roads also still had them. Providence and Worcester was the only US road to buy them after Schenectady closed. Why can't your road be the other?

How about newer GE -7, or -8?

The SD45 was a speed machine. EL had them on fast UPS jobs, as did ATSF, and SP. I'm just saying stick to SD40, which is more general service.They would be at home on either unit trains or merchandise trains.

Back then, 4 axle units were not just for local service. GP40 was a good road unit.

[reece202]

How in-depth do I need to be with the history for roster-building. About all I have right now history wise is a basic timeline.

List of acquisitions back to 1856 not shown
1960: CN&C gains a controlling interest in the Southern Ohio RR
1962: Passenger service on CN&C/CNR/SOHRR downgraded to minimum levels in most markets.
1973: Creation of Cincy Route Railroad Corporation. CN&C/CNR/SOHRR become subsidiaries under this banner, with a common look in the same vein as Chessie System.
1982: Due to financial and physical plant declines during the mid-to-late 70's, the Cincy Route is sold to industrial conglomerate Rousseau Industries. The 3 subsidiaries are merged to form Cincy Route Transportation. R.I. uses the meager profits from the railroad to prop up poor investments in other sectors.
1986: CRT management cleared and refilled to rebuild the railroad and prevent its failure. This measure works and allows the railroad to spring back to it's pre-70's financial state by 1993.

------------------------------------------------------

I hadn't considered the D&H's Alcos as a comparable fleet given the network size difference. I mostly based my decisions on what neighboring roads had, mainly the Southern and the L&N. I went light on the newer power given that R.I. was effectively running the railroad in idle for much of the -7 era, and only really added locomotives where there was a great need, such as the SD50's, which were assigned to pusher service in the mountains similar to the ones on CSX at the time, displacing the SD35's and SD40's that were assigned to pushers to other duties.
As for the 45's, those would have been assigned to the more southern divisions, from around Charlotte,NC down to Tampa, occasionally passing through the mountains [and therefore my layout] with intermodals. 

[emd16645]

The history timeline, while important, isn't exactly what I'd consider to be the most important here. I'd suggest to focus on the purchasing philosophy of your road. This will help you determine what power you need for your roster. Think about what power was purchased when. Also, think about what other roads were buying at the same time, especially the bigger ones. Adding extra units to another road's purchase can result in cheaper prices, along with any orders that were cancelled for other roads. For smaller roads, choosing a single locomotive manufacturer is common, mainly for maintenance purposes. Larger roads will sample a bit of everything in case reliability issues crop up with a particular model.

For my road, the purhasing philosophy revolves around buying EMD/GMD products. My railroad was built in the 1960's, and start up power consisted of secondhand EMD products. This was due to most of the smaller builders (FM, Baldwin) being out of business, Alco looking to be on the way out, and GE not being on the used market at the time. In the 1970's after my road got up and running at full steam and additional motive power was required, the company went to EMD for new locomotives, a trend that was repeated into the modern day.

[Randy Earle]

I think your railroad is a bit too large. Start off with a short line or a class 3, and then if you need to expand. I see way too many guys lose interest because they worried about the big stuff first. Many of the most interesting model railroads are the simple ones. That way, your roster and rolling stock list can be much smaller.

[reece202]

Feb 24, 2014 12:31:52 GMT -5 Randy Earle said:

I think your railroad is a bit too large. Start off with a short line or a class 3, and then if you need to expand. I see way too many guys lose interest because they worried about the big stuff first. Many of the most interesting model railroads are the simple ones. That way, your roster and rolling stock list can be much smaller.

Actually, the current system map is smaller than the original, which included more line out towards New Orleans and New York.

The actual layout which is in progress is a coal branch in Western VA. Currently all I have is 4x8 built as two 2x8 scenes without a loop, but once I have that done I'll add a connector between the mainline junction on one side to end of the branch on the other.

I've been keeping myself in a paperwork mode where locomotives and rolling stock are concerned because I have tendency to jump the gun on painting things before I have things worked out in my head. Despite only ever modeling 1% or less of the fleet, I think it's a good idea to know where the units I have fit into the whole picture

[dave]

If you want a realistic roster, I would suggest picking between second gen ALCO's and First Gen GE's for heavy duty power. There weren't really any roads that had both GE's and ALCOs.

[reece202]

Here's the tentative roster list

Units from the Charleston Norfolk & Cincinnati
36 SW1500
25 SW1200
19 GP7
42 GP9
66 GP30
52 GP35
36 GP40
110 GP38-2
78 GP40-2
45 GP50
27 SD9
42 SD35
45 SD40
121 SD40-2
92 SD50
64 U30B
100 B30-7
Subtotal 1000 units

Units from the Carolina Northern
41 GP7
40 GP30
24 GP40
38 GP40-2
20 GP50
15 SD35
15 SD40
60 SD40-2
2 U36B
42 B30-7
Subtotal 297 units

Units from the Southern Ohio
48 RS3
20 RS11
36 RS27
28 RS36
42 RSD5
63 C430
75 C630
92 C628
16 GP30
36 SD40
24 SD45
62 GP38-2
25 U30B
Subtotal 567 units

Units purchased post merger [1982+]
65 C30-7
81 B40-8
66 C40-8
20 C40-8W
46 SD60M
56 C44-9W
Subtotal 334 units
System Total 2189 units

[Deleted]

be cautious as what randy said about burnout is true I went through it several times before I now have what i'm after

[poweredby251]

Several issues spring to mind.  If Alco had been able to sell 63 C430, 75 C630, and 92 C628, not to mention 36 RS-27, to one railroad, they probably wouldn't have pulled the plug.  Your C-430 and RS-27 purchases far exceed Alco's total sales for these units.

The other road's rosters seem not right as well.  What size railroads are these to portray?  Your loco numbers seem to greatly exceed the numbers needed to run this system.   Also, are the numbers all time totals, or the loco's on system at merger, or present time?  

My suggestion would be to look back at what other roads in the same area purchased, and the service they used them in, and rethink the choices you are making.  Start at the beginning of your road's dieselization, and work forward, basing your second gen purchases on first gen retirements and changes in service over time. 

Granted, few people looking at the loco's on a layout would even think about why this particular loco group was working here and now, but I assume, because you asked the question, that you want to make the effort to make the roster 'right', at least in your own eyes.   

John

Feb 26, 2014 7:29:27 GMT -5 reece202 said:

Here's the tentative roster list

Units from the Charleston Norfolk & Cincinnati
36 SW1500
25 SW1200
19 GP7
42 GP9
66 GP30
52 GP35
36 GP40
110 GP38-2
78 GP40-2
45 GP50
27 SD9
42 SD35
45 SD40
121 SD40-2
92 SD50
64 U30B
100 B30-7
Subtotal 1000 units

Units from the Carolina Northern
41 GP7
40 GP30
24 GP40
38 GP40-2
20 GP50
15 SD35
15 SD40
60 SD40-2
2 U36B
42 B30-7
Subtotal 297 units

Units from the Southern Ohio
48 RS3
20 RS11
36 RS27
28 RS36
42 RSD5
63 C430
75 C630
92 C628
16 GP30
36 SD40
24 SD45
62 GP38-2
25 U30B
Subtotal 567 units

Units purchased post merger [1982+]
65 C30-7
81 B40-8
66 C40-8
20 C40-8W
46 SD60M
56 C44-9W
Subtotal 334 units
System Total 2189 units

[reece202]

I intended it to be current for when the Dash 9's and 70Mac's arrived on the property, but I do agree that it is off a bit. I think what I'd need to do is have a '82-'84 setup and a 90's setup, as I believe there'd be massive retirements during that period. I also failed to notice the production totals.

The totals per line were determined by proportions [# locomotives per mile] of real lines; for example I think the Carolina Northern was based off of the Western Maryland

How exactly do the railroads handle retirement of units? Are the replacements purchased/downgraded to service before or after the retirement?

[icghogger]

Usually, railroads will purchase new power, and put the older units in less demanding service, based on traffic levels. However, it is not unusual to see the oldest power mixed in a consist with the newest, so anything is possible when power demands are high. The expense of operating and/or maintaining any unit is the key factor when a railroad makes a decision to rebuild, trade-in or scrap.

[reece202]

I redid my calculations and came up with much smaller numbers - my original ~2000 was enough for two UP's.

I'm redoing the rosters for each of the component railroads up to 1974 [I've also changed some names and dates from the backstory in the first post]. I went and made revisions for every few years of acquisitions and retirements. The Charleston Norfolk & Cincinnati's is 'done', viewable here (Google spreadsheet)

[cnjsd35]

Ok this is going to be a long winded post but here its goes. I felt the need to sit down and review my operation and approach it from a prototypical standpoint and figure out just what it would take to operate my system. I am hoping that this will help others determine what their individual empires will require as far as realistic roster sizes. I am going to break my entire system down for you yard by yard and every job based out of each yard along with their operational duties and needs. My operation covers 285.25 miles (including trackage rights) over 9 lines and operates five yards. Here is a link to my map so you have an idea of what the railroad covers. www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=zzT28ywqyOHU.k6tnXnwGVGz0 So here we go. 

Hagerstown Yard:

Hagerstown directly serves the Chambersburg Sec, Roxbury Sec and the Potomac Connection. Along with these local lines Hagerstown serves as the westernmost interchange location making connections with CSX, NS and the Winchester & Western. The jobs based out of Hagerstown are:

HY-1 Hargerstown Yard job

This job is responsible for shifting out inbound/outbound interchange traffic in the yard and building trains for the local crews when time allows. The plan is to run this job with a mother slug set.

HG630 Hagerstown local

This job will be responsible for serving the industries along the three lines served by Hagerstown Yard and to make transfer runs between NS and the W&W. This local will most likely only require two locomtives

Hanover Yard:

Hanover serves only the Hanover Sub and as a transfer point for traffic coming down from York. The jobs based out of Hanover are:

HVHG Hanover to Hagerstown road local.

This job is responsible for serving all of the industries and interchange points on the Hanover Sub between Hanover and Hagerstown as well as forwarding cars on to Hagerstown from York. Train returns as HGHV. Due to heavy grades and long train lengths this job requires a minimum of three six axle locomotives.

HVPC Hanover to Port Covington road local

This job is responsible for serving all customers and interchange points on the Hanover Sub between Hanover and Port Covington Yard. train returns the same day as PCHV. Due to grades and train lengths this job usually requires three locomotives.

RKRN Hanover Rock Runner

This job is responsible for running the unit rock trains from the quarry west of Hanover east to the Baltimore area. This can require two to three locomotives depending on train size.

Port Covington Yard:

Port Covington serves the intermodal facilities located there along with being the crew base for all run through bridge traffic. The jobs are the following:

PC-1 and PC-2 Port Covington Yard jobs

These jobs are responsible for the shift of the yard and the intermodal facility. The two jobs overlap each six hours a day and are both 12 hour jobs. Both jobs require two locomotives each.

N89/N91 Port Covington to Enola and return road trains.

These trains are overhead bridge traffic that run with NS run through power so no HYRY locomotives are required. Trains maintain the same symbols in each direction. (These are HYRY symbols not NS symbols)

N88/N90/N92 Port Covington to Hagerstown and return road trains.

These trains are overhead bridge traffic that run with NS run through power so no HYRY locomotives are required. Trains maintain the same symbols in each direction. (These are HYRY symbols not NS symbols)

Market Street Yard in York:

Market St serves the York Sub, Spring Grove Sec, York Ind and the Codorus Ind. The jobs are the following:

MK-1 Market St yard job.

This job is responsible for classifying inbound and outbound traffic at Mark St, Serving customers on the York Sub between Market and Windsor St and interchanging with the ESPN. This job requires two locomotives.

MK615 Daylight York local job.

This job serves all local customers on the York Sub, Spring Grove Sec, York Ind and the Codorus Ind. This job requires two locomotives.

MK180 Overnight York local job.

This job serves all local customers on the York Sub, Spring Grove Sec, York Ind and the Codorus Ind along with switching Market St. This job utilizes the power from MK615 or MK-1.

EAHV Enola to Hanover transfer.

This job starts at Market St and runs outbound traffic to Enola stopping at Windsor St Intermodal facility to pick up outbound traffic. Job returns south with inbound traffic setting out cars at Windsor St and Market St on its way to Hanover Yard. Job returns to Market St with outbound/inbound traffic from Hanover. This job runs overnight and due to train lengths requires three locomotives (usually MK-1 or MK615's power with an additional standby locomotive.

Windsor Street Yard in York:

Windsor St serves the Windsor St intermodal facility and the Central Sub. The jobs are the following:

WSPC Windsor St to Port Covington road local.

This job serves all local industries along the Central sub as well as transferring intermodal traffic between Port Covington and Windsor St. This job requires two locomotives.

So after reviewing all this the minimum my railroad needs to operate would be 24 locomotives. This would leave the railroad with no backup power what so ever so in reality to provide proper coverage and allow for mechanical issues the railroad would realistically need around 30 locomotives. I have tailored my roster to reflect the operations needs along with sticking to power I have an interest in and that will be believable. I personally am a diehard EMD man myself but I have a soft spot for the old GE U boats hence the power mix.

2 GP10

2 GP15-1

4 GP38-3 (rebuild GP50s)

2 GP40

1 Slug

2 U18B

1 U23B

1 SD38P (ex BN SD35 rebuilt to SD38-2 standards)

1 SD39-2 (SD39 rebuilt to -2 specs)

1 SD40-2R (original SD40 built on SD35 frame)

2 SD38-2 (SDP35s rebuilt to SD38-2 standards)

8 SD50

5 U30C (still unsure of these locos)

I will most likely never have a model of every locomotive as I will most definitely never be able to model every aspect of the HYRY system. I hope that this in some way helps you see what goes into creating a realistic locomotive roster in both size and style of power needed. Any questions or comments fire away.