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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 18:38:28 GMT -5
It has been about 3 years or so since I left the Copper State Railway on paper. The motive power I built for it is sold. It will always be my railroad, but will remain just an idea. I moved on to prototype modeling again building Missouri Pacific models. I am starting to feel that it is not my home and quite honestly I do not have a "railroad" home. I have to face the facts that proto-freelancing is a lot more fun for me that prototype modeling. I think it is because I have to create it and I have to come up with the story. The imagination and creativity gets to come out. I am mulling over a new road. Based in the West Virginia coal fields east of Charleston. It is and was a real railroad, but I am going to steal it and change it slightly. Not much, because I want to keep the story to run parallel with reality a bit. The name of the real railroad was the WINIFREDE RAILROAD. It is now called BIG EAGLE. This line is much older than the C&O/Chessie/CSX main that runs along the Kanawha river. It is a short line with just over 6 miles of track and a bit over 3 miles of yard track. Its main service for a very long time was transloading coal from the Carbon Fuel Co. mine to barges on the Kanawha river. It only used one SW1500 for this service. It had a tattered fleet of its own hopper cars and also used a mix of Chessie hoppers, now CSX. They do not transload anymore The WRR hoppers were only in captive service for the transloading. They are no longer on the line since there is no more transloading and only use CSX hoppers. Motive power for the BIG EAGLE is two GP38-2's. So that is a little background of the real railroad. More can be read online here wvncrails.weebly.com/winifrede-big-eagle-railroad.html. Now for my version. Needs some fine tuning. Based in 1973 to 1976. Still running coal to the transloading facility as well as interchange with the Chessie System. The original Winifrede line is still active with the engine terminal in Winifrede, WV as home base. The marshaling yard is still at Winifrede Jct. There is also a large mine up Cabin Creek that the C&O built track to. It is about 10 miles or so off the Chessie main. CHANGE #1: In my era, the Winifrede Railroad services that line with trackage rights for a couple miles over the Chessie main to get to Cabin Creek. CHANGE #2: Because of the two mines, the WRR has 5 locomotives instead of one. CHANGE #3: To add a little flavor to the railroad and my layout. I will add a fuel oil facility along the line to service the local community. I will also have some boxcar, flatcar and gondola service to the mines for mining equipment. Not a lot, but enough to add some switching fun to the layout. CHANGE #4: The paint scheme will be different. Fairly plain and mundane like the prototype, but not the same. I was thinking about changing the name to KANAWHA RIVER MINING COMPANY, but thought it best to stay with WINIFREDE RAILROAD. Motive power will consist of five units. Three non-DB equipped GP28's, one DB equipped GP38 and one DB equipped GP38-2. The GP28's were purchased new in the mid 1960's. After the Chessie System Merger and WRR started servicing the Cabin Creek line, they purchased the 38 and 38-2. Trains will use a caboose. Just like the prototype, I will use the C&O wooden caboose. The kind that Walthers makes. My idea for the paint scheme is yellow with black barricade stripes on both ends. Black sill with white stripe. Black frame, fuel tank and trucks. Simple WRR lettering and double digit numbers on the side of the cab starting with 10 skipping 13 and ending with 15. I found online a track plan for this very railroad. I like it. It represents the original WRR line. I do not have enough room to build both lines unless I model this all in N-Scale which is a possibility, but not likely. I do have the room to model one line in HO. Every time I drive back to Illinois, I pass right through this area. It has intrigued me for a long time so I started looking up railroad information on it. It is ripe for proto-freelance fun. I love eastern railroading and I am giving it some very serious thought.
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Nov 18, 2016 19:23:54 GMT -5
I like the sound of your new concept. I wish the CSR had gone further but this line sounds like it has a lot of promise. Looking forward to seeing the new road take shape.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 20:43:14 GMT -5
One of the GP28's is already well in progress. I started it as a Mopac unit. For the WRR this unit will be a wreck rebuild. It received a PAF box and Blomberg Type M trucks. The other two will still be in as purchased form.
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spike
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Post by spike on Nov 18, 2016 20:53:50 GMT -5
I saw your post on Facebook about getting thoughts on freelance, but this is a better place to post. I think is is thought provoking to be able to think about how a real railroad would do things, then reproduce it with a twist for your unique situation.
As you likely know, my line is based on Boston and Maine. The New England locale appealed, since it is my native region. The company was well run leading up to Guilford. I could have easily just modeled what they might have done had the merger not taken place. I wanted the ease of not having to model any equipment exactly, and also run things they never had.
If a coal road is what you feel really appeals, go for it. I think the GP28 is a good fit. They say the crude wheel slip controls of the day were almost incapable of handling 2500 hp, on the GP35. 1800 hp would work better, and speed isn't really necessary on coal branches. I do think dynamic brake would be beneficial.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2016 21:28:10 GMT -5
I was thinking about dynamics also, but I have to fall back on small railroads. They do not have loads of cash. Dynamics cost money and are also an added maintenance expense. An added fan to have to maintain and or replace later on. The real Winifrede got along for a LONG time with just one SW1500. No DB's. The two GP38-2's that are used today are DB equipped. I went along this same line. They opted for DB's on the 38 and 38-2 because they would run longer trains over a longer branch.
When I did my research for the CSR, I learned a bit about how short line railroads are run. One thing kept coming up. Spend money ONLY when you have to and not on frivolous features.
I like posting here about freelanced modeling also. Much better community for it.
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Post by Randy Earle on Nov 18, 2016 22:28:53 GMT -5
Sounds like a plan Brian. I have decided to stay with my River Run. The idea of running an abandoned branch of NS appeals to me, as I have the chance to backdate the scenery anytime I want to and run my Nickel Plate or Norfolk & Western equipment. I have created several buildings that show the passage of time that I can lift and replace.
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fr8kar
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 18, 2016 23:19:29 GMT -5
I was thinking about dynamics also, but I have to fall back on small railroads. They do not have loads of cash. Dynamics cost money and are also an added maintenance expense. An added fan to have to maintain and or replace later on. The real Winifrede got along for a LONG time with just one SW1500. No DB's. The two GP38-2's that are used today are DB equipped. I went along this same line. They opted for DB's on the 38 and 38-2 because they would run longer trains over a longer branch. When I did my research for the CSR, I learned a bit about how short line railroads are run. One thing kept coming up. Spend money ONLY when you have to and not on frivolous features. I like posting here about freelanced modeling also. Much better community for it. It's an interesting point, and for a short line without much long haul at speeds below 25 it's sound reasoning, in my opinion. If you're talking about moving tonnage over any distance dynamics are the way to go. The real railroads came around to dynamics big time when dynamics could generate braking force below 10 mph and when cabooses fell out of favor. Once there was no longer a need to control slack carefully to keep the conductor and rear brakeman safe, and dynamics could get the job done, railroads started to get away from stretch braking/power braking. Now anything over notch 4 with more than ten pounds set is prohibited. Current teaching says dynamics should be the go to braking force before air, though balanced braking (a mix of air and dynamics) is recommended. Other than the train handling reasons there is the consideration that brake shoe/rigging maintenance is reduced, which is a significant cost that drives the change in train handling as much as care for the crew on the rear. Furthermore, the risk of sticking brakes and the potential for catastrophic failure due to sticking brakes such as hot journals and derailments or fires is reduced by using the brakes less, especially when the amount of air used is less than 10 pounds. If you're trying to control slack and not really reduce speed, you'll set a minimum and pull against it or use no air or you'll bunch the slack using dynamics. With a set of less than 10 pounds, the brakes may not release fully and cannot release quickly since a ten pound set or more is required to activate the quick release function of the ABDW valve. So you get set up for problems with the brakes when you're constantly setting a minimum here and there. Not to mention the fuel you are burning every time you have to pull against the brakes (dynamics don't cause a significant increase in fuel consumption even though the diesel does idle higher when they are used). So, in my opinion, avoiding dynamics because of maintenance cost if you're handling heavy trains over long distances is penny wise and pound foolish.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 9:34:40 GMT -5
Ryan, thanks for the education. I will definitely take this into consideration.
My reply is all that goes out the window with Mopac. A class 1 railroad that did not use DB's on any of their purchases other than when they were forced to with their SD40-2C power for pool service coal trains. Other than that, the entire fleet was non DB and they hauled VERY heavy tonnage.
For my WRR, the scenario is the GP28's were built in late 1964. Build date of 11/64. They piggybacked on the order from IC. One unit came out as a phase Ib2 and two came out as a phase Ib4. WRR got a better deal because they pooled and speced it the same as the IC units.
Also about your penny wise pound foolish statement. On two occasions I have had conversations with short line employees and each had at least one or two stories about just that. Cutting corners to save a dime. On paper it looks good in the beginning, but in the long run it costs more. I build my scenarios on real life stories. Or at least along the lines of this. As modelers, we have hind sight because of past stories and experience. But in real life, that experience is not always already there or the person making the decisions is only looking at the bottom line and not the consequences of the decision.
I do fully appreciate the input, experience and helping to educate me more. Thank you very much.
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AJ Kleipass
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Post by AJ Kleipass on Nov 19, 2016 13:33:07 GMT -5
The only thing I can think of to add to others' responses is to suggest something other than the GP38 / GP38-2 units. Given that the GP28 is an odd bird to begin with, why not go with another such bird: the GP38AC?
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Post by dak94dav on Nov 19, 2016 14:31:08 GMT -5
Sounds like a nice plan. It's hard for me to stray away from western railroads and especially those of Texas, but I've always liked Appalachian coal railroading. Something about SD40s dragging an endless string of hoppers, or a couple Geeps with a mine "shifter" through foggy, narrow valleys stuffed with an old mining town.....now that's railroading lol. I often look at Tom Patterson's Chesapeake, Wheeling & Erie blog to admire his modeling. He really captures the feel and you might enjoy looking into it if you haven't already. cwerailroad.blogspot.com/?m=1Looks like you'll have lots of fun ahead! Dakota
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fr8kar
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 19, 2016 19:04:35 GMT -5
Ryan, thanks for the education. I will definitely take this into consideration. My reply is all that goes out the window with Mopac. A class 1 railroad that did not use DB's on any of their purchases other than when they were forced to with their SD40-2C power for pool service coal trains. Other than that, the entire fleet was non DB and they hauled VERY heavy tonnage. For my WRR, the scenario is the GP28's were built in late 1964. Build date of 11/64. They piggybacked on the order from IC. One unit came out as a phase Ib2 and two came out as a phase Ib4. WRR got a better deal because they pooled and speced it the same as the IC units. Also about your penny wise pound foolish statement. On two occasions I have had conversations with short line employees and each had at least one or two stories about just that. Cutting corners to save a dime. On paper it looks good in the beginning, but in the long run it costs more. I build my scenarios on real life stories. Or at least along the lines of this. As modelers, we have hind sight because of past stories and experience. But in real life, that experience is not always already there or the person making the decisions is only looking at the bottom line and not the consequences of the decision. I do fully appreciate the input, experience and helping to educate me more. Thank you very much. Mopac existed entirely during the time cabooses were in use, so having to accomodate the crew on the rear meant having to stretch/power brake. Once there was no crew on the rear, that train handling concern just wasn't there. So what I'm talking about applies to the post-caboose era. Dynamics were also becoming more effective in the 80s as the SD50/60 series and Dash 8s came out, so that's where you see the change. Mopac took delivery of dynamic equipped C36-7s and SD50s as their final locomotives, which mirrors a trend that occurred with other roads at that time. If you model a railroad that populated its fleet with power from the secondary market during this time, like everything else I'm sure they would be behind the times a bit. As evidence of this train handling change, look at the weathering of locomotives and cars up to the mid 80s: lots of brown brake dust covering everything. That hazy brown color just doesn't dominate railcars anymore because the brakes are used far less often than in the past. To your point about railroads (or any organization) stepping over a dollar to save a dime, it's extremely common and it seldom makes any sense. They will limit us to notch six on certain trains to save fuel then wonder why we are delaying Amtrak or act surprised when we don't have time to finish the trip, thereby causing either a fine or requiring a relief crew, both of which negate the savings of staying out of notch 7 or 8. Ultimately all this is just food for thought. I certainly don't want to steer you away from what you want to model. It's funny how the features I like as a railfan and modeler I hate as an engineer: high hoods, running long hood forward, flared radiators, wide noses, high mounted headlights, ditch lights, etc. Nothing better than seeing an NS SD60 running LHF leading a coal train in the snow. But if it was me in the cab, I would not be happy. Give me an AC4400CW any day.
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fr8kar
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 19, 2016 19:08:33 GMT -5
I have created several buildings that show the passage of time that I can lift and replace. I love this idea. I would enjoy seeing this in action.
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spike
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Post by spike on Nov 19, 2016 19:39:12 GMT -5
My B&M had db on the road freight power up to the GP18. Their poor track couldn't take the buff forces, so they disconnected them. They had several major wrecks due to this. The newer power came without, even though things were in good shape by the time the GP40-2 order came.
I agree that the advent of extended range made db use more appealing. The thought back then was that the brake shoe wear was a cost to a car's owner. According to interchange rules, brake shoe changes are charged to the owner. The extra fuel used to stretch brake was unimportant until the 1970s fuel shortage. In cases of steep hills, retainers were used, so the engineer could have time to recharge.
How about some old geeps?
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Nov 19, 2016 19:54:29 GMT -5
I was going to say DBs should be mandatory on a holler travelling RR but considering the era and shortline aspect, it makes sense for the GP28s to have been specced as cheaply as posssible. I'd suggest small tanks (less material cost per unit) and as many other basic options as possible like footboard pilots and standard factory options. Maybe like this: I like the concept, shame the CSR is gone but this looks like it'll be a worthwhile project.
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osrr
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Post by osrr on Nov 19, 2016 20:36:13 GMT -5
Anyone on here good at drawing these? I'd love to see a "Phase II" GP28.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2016 22:28:23 GMT -5
AJ, at the time of the WRR purchase of the GP28. The GP38 was not available. The GP28 was state of the art.
Ryan, I love your input. Thank you. Stories of real railroading help a LOT in my education of running my railroad as real as possible. My era is the Caboose era. I have a brass C&O wood caboose on its way to me. Exactly the same type of caboose that the WRR had.
Mitchell, The story behind my GP28's is that WRR piggybacked the order with an IC order and to save a little more, allowed them to be speced the same as the IC units. So yes, the WRR GP28's will have the short fuel tanks.
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fr8kar
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 20, 2016 8:27:55 GMT -5
AJ, at the time of the WRR purchase of the GP28. The GP38 was not available. The GP28 was state of the art. Ryan, I love your input. Thank you. Stories of real railroading help a LOT in my education of running my railroad as real as possible. My era is the Caboose era. I have a brass C&O wood caboose on its way to me. Exactly the same type of caboose that the WRR had. Mitchell, The story behind my GP28's is that WRR piggybacked the order with an IC order and to save a little more, allowed them to be speced the same as the IC units. So yes, the WRR GP28's will have the short fuel tanks. That's great, Brian. I am in the caboose era myself. Those were good days for sure.
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Nov 20, 2016 8:38:53 GMT -5
Sounds good Brian!
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Post by simulatortrain on Nov 21, 2016 9:30:48 GMT -5
I like the sound of this. The WRR was a really interesting railroad.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2016 10:14:31 GMT -5
As I refine the road and trying VERY hard NOT to alter the history to much. Lets say as little as possible. I am having a hard time justifying three locomotives.
Up until the 1950s, the WRR was using a 2-8-0. Then they purchased a GE 70 tonner and in 1967 they purchased an SW1500 which is still in use. In 2013 they leased two GP38-2's.
What I am changing is that instead of buying an SW1500 in 1967. They bought the GP28 in 1964. I wanted it to be three units, but with their operations, I cannot justify it. Based on reality, one unit for the Fields Creek line seems to be sufficient to do the job. Other than just saying its my railroad and I can do what I want, which is not how I operate. How can I justify three units?
I can justify the addition of two GP38's in the 1973 to 1976 time span I am modeling because in my twist on history, the WRR obtained the trackage from C&O after the Chessie merger and started servicing the Cabin Creek line mines.
So the history of the railroad and its operations stay the same. The changes I am making is when they purchased their motive power and the type. And the addition of the Cabin Creek line.
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