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Post by Christian on Sept 19, 2016 19:16:47 GMT -5
Good evening all, While I'm waiting for my paint to dry on my QGRY 2500 shell, I'm sitting at my computer thinking about my next project! One that I always thought was cool is the items in the subject, QGRY 3800 - 800 (or 3801 - 801 combo) mother-slug pair. So, I have the GP-40-2, the Tsunami decoder, the GP-38-2 (slug) but I am missing a vital part for this to work, the snowshield over the side vent. does anyone know who makes them or should I scratch build them? Thanks for your help again, I'll try to not forget about this post this time! :-)
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Sept 19, 2016 22:56:46 GMT -5
Just by that picture I can tell this is not a factory GP40-2 but a rebuilt to -2, or whatever -3 standards are, GP40. I checked some more pics of that unit and wow is it an interesting build. It was rebuilt with GP40-2 currogated radiator grills. Weird -2 extended range doors and even a water sight door on the engineers side. Sounds -2, looks -2, mechanically a -2, but originally it is not. I would not start with the standard GP40-2 model for this. The shields are made by more than one manufacturer I think. Sorry I can't help you on their names off hand though lol.
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kcw
Road Foreman
Posts: 60
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Post by kcw on Sept 19, 2016 23:05:24 GMT -5
Last set I got a while back was details west white plastic.
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Post by Christian on Sept 20, 2016 8:09:21 GMT -5
kcw: You wouldn't have the part number by any chance? deez: Man, you really have an eye for details!!! I'm impressed! These are the things I would never see! Thank you for noting them to me. But to me, this looks like an almost ordinary GP40-2. Not sure my skills are good enough to make all these mods! I'm just trying to catch the feel of the proto. Maybe in a few years time, I might be able to spot all the details like you do! :-) You think this one is interesting, you might want to have a look at the road slugs #800 - 801, they have some interesting details as well! I may have to move this project up the ladder since I have the decoder for both locos in hand and the GP40-2 is stripped bare. I also have the GP38-2 for the slug. There is only a few doors left on each side but I'm not sure how I can remove the molded on doors on Atlas gp38 since they are raised. Cheers, Chris
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Post by jmlaboda on Sept 20, 2016 14:54:17 GMT -5
rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=130236Definitely an unusual prototype kitbash !!! Likely salvaged the corrugated grills from a wrecked unit... never seen such detail on a rebuilt before !!! (The site glass retrofitting is not unusual... a lot of Class ones did this with their earlier GPs.)
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Post by Christian on Sept 20, 2016 19:18:26 GMT -5
Yeah, I always pick interesting stuff... that I have no clue is interesting! So what you are all saying is that I should change the radiator screens with these Radiator grills?
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kcw
Road Foreman
Posts: 60
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Post by kcw on Sept 20, 2016 22:47:04 GMT -5
kcw: You wouldn't have the part number by any chance? deez: Man, you really have an eye for details!!! I'm impressed! These are the things I would never see! Thank you for noting them to me. But to me, this looks like an almost ordinary GP40-2. Not sure my skills are good enough to make all these mods! I'm just trying to catch the feel of the proto. Maybe in a few years time, I might be able to spot all the details like you do! :-) You think this one is interesting, you might want to have a look at the road slugs #800 - 801, they have some interesting details as well! I may have to move this project up the ladder since I have the decoder for both locos in hand and the GP40-2 is stripped bare. I also have the GP38-2 for the slug. There is only a few doors left on each side but I'm not sure how I can remove the molded on doors on Atlas gp38 since they are raised. Cheers, Chris Tried looking up the part # in the walthers catalog doesn't even show as available anymore so no ideas other than Flea bay
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Post by Christian on Sept 21, 2016 8:38:21 GMT -5
Awww... Thanks kcw for the try! I've been searching those fro EvilBay and can't find them, and I need 2 sets at least! :-(
Edit: Got them! Details West #194! They are labeled as "awning/smoke deflector"...
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Post by jmlaboda on Sept 21, 2016 14:55:03 GMT -5
Yeah, I always pick interesting stuff... that I have no clue is interesting! So what you are all saying is that I should change the radiator screens with these Radiator grills? Yes. Would have to likely sand down the framing of the stock grills so these can be applied but it shouldn't be that difficult to do...
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Sept 21, 2016 20:59:10 GMT -5
Christian, am I correct in assuming you're using an Athearn GP40-2 for this model? There are some things you can do to help give it that og 40 series look. First, shave off the two support ribs on the blower hump. Most 40 series units including your prototype do not have them. Cannon & Co. corrugated radiator grills out back. I would also see if you can aquire a straight 40 dynamic brake hatch. It's one of the glaring spotting features of this diesel. If you look at your -2 dynamic hatch the conductors side it has a forward faring that extends to the back of the inertial filter grills. The engineers side with the standard taper is what the dynamics on both sides should look like. You'll see this in the proto pics. Changing the cab, cab sub base and nose would really help the look but you do have to do some moderate cutting at that point to just prepare a shell for those changes. It's understandable if you don't opt for that. I might even have and extra 40 series cab & nose you could have if you did that.
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Post by Christian on Sept 22, 2016 11:18:59 GMT -5
Hey deez,
Thanks for all the info. I will not be using any Athearn's locos for this project. I will instead use an Atlas GP-40-2 (Conrail shell but stripped to bare plastic) for the QGRY 3800 and an Atlas GP38-2 (either undecorated or ex CSX shell, I have both in my stash) for QGRY 800 road slug. I'm not sure I understand half of what you wrote (probably because I'm at work now, lol...) but I'll most likely do the radiator grill swap since this is a very prominent feature on the proto. Concerning the DB hatch on the 40, I believe that the Atlas one is the correct version but I'll have to double check that tonight. Same goes with the 38 DB hatch (road slug).
One thing I may end up doing is swap combos, meaning that QGRY has 2 sets of mother/road slug combo, 3800-800 and 3801-801, depending on the size of fuel tank I have on my model at the moment. #3800 seems to have a shorter fuel tank, but it doesn't look to be like a 2600 gal. capacity tank (as per Trainiax drawings). Fortunately, I have decal sets that allow me to do either, or both! :-D
I think the biggest challenge for this project on unit #3800-01, will be removing and replacing the radiator grills. On Unit #800-01 removing the same AND removing all the doors on the sides that are not on the proto... I may try my hand at using styrene sheets and gluing Cannon & Co. doors instead! Or if it looks to be too much of a challenge, just removing the grills and top fans may be sufficient to show it's heritage as a road slug.
Looking at #800, its history says it's a 38-2 but when you look at the DB hatch, it looks like an hatch from a 40 (no paper filter), right?
In resume, does all the modifications you pointed out still applies to Atlas engines? I'd say yes and no, but... not too sure! Looking at pictures of the shell, it looks like the DB hatch is incorrect, the radiator grills needs replacing and not sure about the blower root ribs! I do know Atlas Geeps (not Roco) are much better then Athearn's and often, have road specifics details.
Cheers, and thanks again for your comments and help.
Chris
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Sept 22, 2016 23:06:33 GMT -5
Christian, although the Atlas models are the Master series for their GP40-2 and a better tooled model. The same rules and changes will apply. Look at the blower hump on your 40-2 model and you'll see that it has two ribs running parallel across it. The prototype does not have those ribs simply because it was built before they were introduced. The hidden fact is that -2 blower humps while the hump itself is the same, the sheet metal surround and bolt pattern that mounts it to the clean air room is also different. But just by removing the ribs you get closer to the earlier look for this model. As far as the radiator grills go. Best way to do this is drill a series of holes just inside the perimeter of the molded on radiator grills and I chop the rest out with like a no.16 flat blade. The Cannon & company grills also have 2 alignment ribs top and bottom that are ment to sit inside the hole you make for them. It's easier than you might at first think to do these mods. You can do the same for the road slug. Drill inside the perimeter of the doors to be removed and chop the rest out. Sand smooth then fill the opening with styrene. Then pat yourself on the back for turning a beautiful EMD into something completely ugly lol. Maybe that's the real reason they're called "slugs". Now I did take a good gander at the road slug also and I'll be a monkey's uncle if that thing isn't anything but a rebuilt (and badly defaced) straight 40. It's basically 3801's ugly sister lol. There is certainly no evidence to show that this was once a GP38-2. Even if one were to believe it could have been a really early straight 38 which had the same dynamic hatch as a straight 40 sans the turbo stack. It's still highly unlikely. I seriously doubt that any of those early 38's made it past even the 80's without having paper air filter boxes hacked into them. Definitely not now-a-days. Only Southern RR had 38-2's with oil bath filters otherwise all GP38-2's came with paper air filter boxes installed.
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Post by Christian on Sept 23, 2016 9:59:58 GMT -5
Deez, thanks man for all the great information! I was looking at pictures of 800 - 801 last night and was thinking how weird it was to see a DB housing from a 40. I'll dig a little more into the history of these "beautiful and unique" units! ;-)
The way you describe the process of removing the rad grill makes it look pretty easy, so I've ordered the correct hatches and will follow your guidance.
Removing the ribs... simple enough!
The "ugly" sister is apparently rebuilt from ex-CSX GP38 #2123, nee C&O 4823 as per the information on "The Diesel Shop". I'm not too sure how reliable the information is, but looking at picture of these 2 locos on "rrpicturearchives.net", you can clearly see they are indeed 38s. Could the shop at GWI changed the hatch of the 38 for a 40's? Or is their other signs that points to a linage as a 40?
Until I have more answers, I'll have to put the project on the backburner and also because I'm missing one DB hatch of the correct type (I thought I had 2, but I only have one) and scourging EvilBay for one last night didn't yield any results! So in the box it goes. I can finally get to work on my C-424 I got for my birthday! :-)
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Sept 23, 2016 15:00:08 GMT -5
C&O 4823 is a factory paper air filter equipped GP38. I guess my main argument that these are not of "38" origins is that 3801 has three fans and a turbo stack. I don't see some rebuilder or railroads shops taking a non turbo GP38 and making a turbo 40 series out of it. With plenty of 40 series hulks around it doesn't seem productively relevant. Now the opposite rebuild and de-turbo has happened numerous times. It seems to be an easy conversion as with -2 upgrades for a rebuild. I'll admit the straight dynamics on both could be argued as added equipment. I've seen all kinds of dynamic additions making for some interesting builds. The kind of diesels they are and their 60's build dates just make it not likely that they were anything but old geep 40's. I could be wrong also but I'll stick with my first observation that these two were never originally -2's lol
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Post by Christian on Sept 23, 2016 20:05:21 GMT -5
Oh, I see what you mean! I'm not arguing about 3800 or 3801, these are clearly 40s, I'm doubting 800-801 origins has 38s. When you look at both, the DB hatch is clearly 40s, not 38s.
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sgoti
Chairman
Posts: 459
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Post by sgoti on Sept 24, 2016 20:34:35 GMT -5
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Sept 25, 2016 0:15:12 GMT -5
EMD started sending -2's out with corrugated radiator grills in late '74. If there is a pic of 3057 with those updated grills taken before '74 I would be amazed. But it does show that upgrades or a parts swap can happen even before a diesel is rebuilt. 3057 has its small "Rio Grande" lettered paint too. Very cool.
Christian, you can use whatever locomotive you want to build these two units. My comments are never to talk down to a fellow modeler but to help educate or steer one in the right direction. I study plenty of other modelers on this forum (weather they know it or not) lol. The GP40 and GP40-2 look alike but are really apples and oranges. Fortunately for us we have multiple good brands that make each of them.
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Post by Christian on Sept 25, 2016 12:12:02 GMT -5
Hi guys, thanks again for sharing your knowledge. deez: I am not taking your comments as if you were "talking me down", I'm just seeing it as they are and that you "help educate or steer me in the right direction" so I can have a better final product, closer to the proto, as much as I can. if it is something that I have the skills to do/change, I will do it, otherwise, I'll stick with what I have. I don't know where D&RGW #3057 came from, but just so we are all on the same page, here is the lineage of each unit as per the "The Diesel Shop" website. QGRY 3800= Ex-TFM 1157 < HLCX 4404 < IW GP40 301 < UP 603(2nd) < MP 603(2nd) < nee RI 343 QGRY 3801= Ex-HLCX 4411 < Amtrak GP40 658 < B&M 324 < CR 3234 < nee PC 3234 QGRY 800= Unknown QGRY 801= Reblt from ex-CSX GP38 #2123 < nee C&O 4823 So as per the TDS website, 800-801 (road slugs) are rebuilt 38 but that does not explain the 40 BD hatch. Can the paper filter hatch have been removed and replaced with a DB hatch from a 40? Any spotting feature that could tell me (us) it was indeed a 38 and not a 40? Thanks for your help! Note: I'm just curious to know, that's all. If there is no answer, then so be it! :-)
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deez
Chairman
Midland Belt Railway
Posts: 949
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Post by deez on Sept 25, 2016 14:31:50 GMT -5
Lol hey Christian, it's that "just want to know" that gets me starring at then studying EMD build and "phaseology" constantly. I swear I spend more time looking through diesel photos and motive power books than modeling. I had an old ex-girlfriend that would tease me and call it "train porn". "You lookin at your train porn again" she would say as I'm laying in bed beside her buried in my iPad. Haha! Gotta love it.
Were all four of these diesels rebuilt by the same company?
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Sept 25, 2016 15:53:05 GMT -5
Info from the Canadian Trackside Guide 2009 edition.
800 ex CSXT 9659 exx CSXT 2025 exxx BO 3825
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