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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 26, 2013 9:47:55 GMT -5
I'm just thinking that even with the RR starting in 1996 there would be decent growth thru the continual rise and steady cost of copper. That alone would allow for investments in power (even leases on locomotives such as SD70Ms from EMDX or other RRs).
One thing I'm curious about, Copper State owns the mine or is just the transport operator?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 9:50:40 GMT -5
The mine owner is Resolution Copper (real company) Look up Resolution Copper and you will see the operation. Very impressive. Copper State Railway is the transport operator.
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 26, 2013 10:01:18 GMT -5
Yeah I've just read your website (again, needed to jog the memory...).
What I would do is this...
Main line and switching power: Unit #500 SD40-2 ex CNW Unit #501 SDP45 ex EL/CR Unit #502 SD40-2 ex UP Snoot Unit #503 SD40-2 ex UP Snoot Unit #504 SD40-2 ex QNS&L Unit #505 SD40-2 ex QNS&L Unit #506 SD40-2 ex QNS&L Unit #507 SD40-2 ex UP Post 1980 with Q-fans and Q-exhaust Unit #508 SD40-2 ex CR Unit #509 SD40T-2 ex SP/UP Unit #510 SD60 (ex EMDX) Unit #511 SD60 (ex EMDX)
510 and 511 could be from Oakway as long term lease units with a buyout option (which could be exercised in the last few years as Oakway flogged them off) and would give CSRR a couple of big new units to dedicate solely to the concentrate train. This wouldn't blow the number of units out, kinda solves the issue of what to do with 507 and 508 too.
Another idea is new power in the form of SD60s, long term lease SD70s or new build ACes or M-2s that are part funded by Resolution and CSRR on the basis of them being solely dedicated to the concentrate trains. 3x units total would do the job if the CSRR roster is as above which would give 4 locomotives to share between 2 concentrate rakes with a spare unit as backup.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 10:15:34 GMT -5
I really do like this idea.
But, you have confused me on the last sentence."3x units total would do the job if the CSRR roster is as above which would give 4 locomotives to share between 2 concentrate rakes with a spare unit as backup." You mention 3x units, but then say 4 locomotives to share. So did you mean 4x units?
Now you've given me more to think about.
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 26, 2013 10:20:08 GMT -5
Er sorry, the 3x new units plus the 510 and 511 gives 5x total. Should have made that clear because it confused me when I read what I said...
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 26, 2013 10:34:54 GMT -5
I would also consider the option of a few "loaner" units from a connecting road instead of permanent roster additions. I'm not sure who the Copper State interchanges with, but that company may opt to either sublet or short term lease a few of their unneeded locos. If you aren't keen on that, then I would certainly say the GDMRCo is on to something. I am of the opinion that for the most part, that mining operations are a fairly lucrative operation that can afford newer equipment, along with their equipment likely is worked a bit harder and wears out faster.
Also, I was curious as to the time frame your operation is set. I'm sure it's been mentioned before, I just don't remember (early senility perhaps). Depending on the timeframe of your layout would definitely effect your options. SD40-2s would be good choice for initial start up (you said in 1996), but if business was good and you modeled more recent times, then newer power would be a good possibility. Look at examples such as the Cartier and QNSL, who have had. A steady trickle of new power over the past several years.
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Post by stevef45 on Aug 26, 2013 11:32:18 GMT -5
What about running power hungry and not having the money to purchase "newer" equipment and thus leasing whatever some leasers have? Patched up units mixed in would like a lil interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 11:41:49 GMT -5
The railroad connections are with UP & BNSF. Mostly UP.
Before I build any lease units, I want my core fleet done. It takes me the better part of 3 to 6 months to build these things. Its not like I can just build something and then change and quickly build something else. The turn around time is very long.
Now comes the real problem with all this. If all this was just on paper, it would be very easy to just keep writing the story. But it is moving from paper to real modeling. Both in HO and N-Scale. So time frame is critical because I do not want to keep moving it and having to keep moving my motive power needs. The real problem is wit the mining operation. It appears that this is what I am focusing on, but the real mining does not start until around 2021. Right now they are digging down to the copper deposit. So for the mining, I either bring it back in time or I set my period in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 11:44:31 GMT -5
Steve,
That would be unlikely. There is enough business in the Phoenix area without the mine to have the necessary power.
Initially I wanted to set my time frame back to the late 1990's to early 2000. But when I read about the mining operation coming up, it threw a wrench into all that.
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 26, 2013 16:04:44 GMT -5
I'd go with 510 and 511 being SD60s then and look into a handful of new build units part funded by Resolution and CSRR in 2021 then in that case.
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c415rock
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Post by c415rock on Aug 27, 2013 1:39:38 GMT -5
Hi Brian, This is a great thread going here. So here is some more ideas for you to chew on. I think your original idea of the EMD SD 40-2 fleet is more of a plausible scenario. If you look at the prototype railroads here in North America Ore haulers. They mimic much of what you seem to have planned for the CSRY. Yes early on most of these roads bought new power and rebuilt them to continue to meet there needs. But as time went on the all purchased a lot of second hand power to meet there needs or rebuild. If you look at the LS&I in the UP of Michigan, they have always been owned by Cliffs Natural Resources. www.cliffsnaturalresources.com/EN/Pages/default.aspx The last new locomotive purchase for the LS&I was in 1964 for U25C locomotives. Everything since then has been second hand locomotives. RSD15 from ATSF, U30C from DEEX & BN, C30-7 form BN/BNSF. The newest power on the road is leased CEFX Leased GE Power AC4400CW. The LS&I tested SD50/60 from NREX and the AC4400CW from CEFX at the same time and found the GE's to be superior to the SD in every area. They found that the GE's were better pullers in heavy drag service and had less wheel slip. All thing important to a road hauling heavy loads. If you look at the used unit they purchased, they all come from the heavy haul service. Here is a link to the LS&I all time roster showing the history and disposition of each unit. www.thedieselshop.us/LSI.HTML A second example is the DMIR who was owned by United States Steel, until they formed Transstar which included the BLE,EJ&E,Union,Lake Terminal, Delray Connecting, and Birmingham Southern. Which then was sold to a investment company, who sold it to Canadian National. DMIR last new locomotive purchase was in 1975 of SD38-2. Since then all of DMIR locomotives have either been rebuilt from engines they own or purchased second hand engines that have been rebuilt. For example there SD40-3 which are rebuilt wearing SD45T-2 bodies along with rebuilt SD45-2 rebuilt to SD40-3 as well. Many of the DMIR units have gone on to work for other roads as well. DMIR C630 were sold to the Cartier and went to work for them until 1990. DMIR RSD15 went to BLE first then they were sold to the Cartier as well and served the Cartier until 1988. When they were retired. Here is a link to the DMIR all time roster as well. It shows the history of each engine and disposition. So you can get a good feel of the current power as well see how they approached the motive power game over time. www.missabe.com/diesellocos.html The thing to keep in mind is that all of these railroads are owned or were owned but major Corporations who had to answer to investors. For them the main focus is to move large amounts of product to the customer at the lowest cost possible. So in theory it is not important to have the latest greatest power. When used and rebuilt units can get the job done for a fraction of the cost of a new unit. CN is repainting the SD40-3 and not replacing them with newer power on the DMIR or the BLE. So only one can assume that the same still holds true today. Hope I did not confuse you, just adding my two cents. Erik
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 27, 2013 1:58:18 GMT -5
The only thing that throws a spanner into that is that CN is using their rebuilt SD60s and C40-8/8Ws more and more on the DMIR trains as the failure rate of the SD45T-3s increases. LS&I has been leasing the CEFX AC4400CWs to replace the U30Cs and C30-7s as they continue to fail, North Shore has recently picked up the lease on 3 Citigroup ES44ACs to test with an eye towards either buying or leasing new power for their trains.
As for the Canucks? QNSL has been buying new SD70ACes to go with their AC4400CWs and C44-9Ws whilst QCM/ArcelorMittal has purchased AC4400CWs, ES44ACs and most recently SD70ACes.
The big problem with these examples is the tonnages hauled and in the case of the Canadians is they not only haul the ore but they own the mines.
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c415rock
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Post by c415rock on Aug 27, 2013 3:54:36 GMT -5
Hi gdrmco,
I am not sure were the spanner is coming from? What failures are the the SD40-3 having? As far as I know the SD60' and the C40-8/8W you speak of were upgraded to CN specs, but have not been rebuilt. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but if the were rebuilt they would need to meet tier3 standards. Buy the smoke plume that I seen this past weekend from one of the ex Oakway units. I doubt that happened. The used loco's were purchased to supplement power shortages system wide and growth in traffic.
CN (ex-GMTX/ex-EMDX) SD60 STATUS:
All 43 second-hand EMD SD60 (3,800 hp) locomotives that CN acquired from GMTX last year, have been repainted, upgraded to CN specifications, and are in service. As well, a dozen units from the 2nd group of 47 EMDX Oakway’s have been painted at Centralia, IL, and are in service.
CN to acquire 161 locomotives to handle expected traffic increases, improve operational efficiency
Will help meet growth and customer focused service plans
MONTREAL, March 22, 2012 — CN announced today a major locomotive acquisition program to accommodate anticipated traffic growth and to improve operational efficiency, enabling the railway to better serve its customers.
CN will acquire 65 new high-horsepower locomotives as well as 96 second-hand high-horsepower locomotives that will be upgraded.
Keith Creel, executive vice-president and chief operating officer, said: “CN's locomotive acquisition program represents a balanced, capital-effective approach to handle expected volume growth over the next two to five years and to meet the locomotive requirements resulting from customer focused service plans.
“The new and used motive power will enhance operational efficiency and reduce fuel consumption by permitting the retirement of older, high-maintenance locomotives and the cascading of less fuel-efficient main-line units into less-demanding yard and local switching operations, while providing additional locomotives to accommodate increased traffic.”
CN will take delivery in 2013-14 of 35 new ES44AC locomotives from GE Transportation (GE), and 30 new SD70ACe locomotives from Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD). The GE units have 4,400 and the SD70ACe units 4,300 horsepower.
Creel added: “The program includes the acquisition of alternating-current locomotives (AC), which will represent a first for CN. Our current fleet of approximately 1,900 locomotives employs direct-current (DC) traction technology, which has served us well because of the overall favourable grades of our network.
“We will harness the key advantage of AC traction – much higher adhesion or train-pulling ability at low speeds -- in assigning the new AC units to heavy-haul coal service in northern British Columbia and Alberta, where steep grades and sharp rail curvature make heavy demands on our locomotives.”
CN will purchase this year 42 second-hand GE Dash 8-40C locomotives, 11 leased GE Dash 8-40C locomotives, and 43 second-hand EMD SD60 locomotives. The Dash 8 units have 4,000 and the SD60s 3,800 horsepower. These direct-current technology locomotives will be upgraded to CN specifications. The new locomotives CN is purchasing are equipped with distributed power technology (DP), a GE product, which improves train handling and fuel efficiency. The company expects that 50 per cent of its high-horsepower locomotive fleet will have DP by the end of 2013.
DP technology permits remote control of a locomotive or locomotives throughout a train from the lead control unit. DP provides faster, smoother train starts, improved braking and lower pulling forces at the head-end and within a train, contributing significantly to improved safety. With more optimum matching of motive power to train weight, DP locomotives also allow CN to reduce fuel consumption and reduce emissions.
Creel said: “A robust, fuel-efficient locomotive fleet is critical to CN's plan to take advantage of the traffic growth we expect in the years ahead and to ensure we have the motive-power assets to improve the supply chains of our customers and enhance their competitiveness in domestic and global markets.”
To which this has changed since this was announced, CN has canceled the EMD order and added on to the GE order. This was based on cost of the unit from EMD being moore. This info comes from Canadian Railway Observations current issue.
I was talking to a friend who works for CN, he had mentioned that some of the 43 Oakways are at Centralia IL getting worked on. When the leases ended on the 12 ex-LMS dash 8's CN ended up buying them out right, which is now at 11 dash 8's since the CSX wreck a few months ago ended with one being scrapped. Supposedly there are some GE's on the NS that have very little time left on their lease and when that time expires CN will be buying them as well. The ex-GTW SD40-3's in the KCS paint that are roaming the railroad were also purchased when the leases were up, most of these had been stored for quite some time.
So if the SD40-3 are failing why is CN buying them still? Here is a list of current SD40-3 on the DMIR roster these units have all been rebuilt by VMV for HELM and leased to DMIR.
400 EMD SD40-3 Mar-72 7336-31 SP-6770/SP-9196 1/21/96 All SD40-3's rebuilt by VMV at Paducah for Helm (leased to DM&IR), repainted into CN 10/06. 401 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7336-04 SP-6772/SP-9169 1/25/96 All SD40-3's except 416 and 418 use SD45T-2 bodies. Repainted into CN 10/06. 402 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7336-08 SP-6784/SP-9173 1/11/96 All SD40-3's are 3,000 horsepower. Repainted into CN 10/06 403 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7336-19 SP-6786/SP-9184 2/6/96 Not repainted into CN colors. 404 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7336-16 SP-6791/SP-9181 1/11/96 Repainted into CN 2/06 405 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7348-07 See notes 6/27/96 HATX-938/SP-6767/SP-9500/SSW-9163. 406 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7336-06 See notes 7/10/96 HATX-939/SP-6768/SP-9501/SP-9171. Repainted into CN 10/07. 407 EMD SD40-3 Feb-73 72625-18 SP-6787/SSW-9278 8/6/96 Repainted into CN 7/07 408 EMD SD40-3 Feb-72 7348-04 See notes 6/27/96 HATX 925/SP-6776/SSW-9160. Repainted into CN 10/07. 409 EMD SD40-3 Feb-73 72625-20 See notes 8/6/96 HATX-936/SP-6790/SSW-9280, repainted CN 2/07
To touch on the LS&I units yes they are leasing the AC4400CW, but that is because they did not want to spend the money on new units. AC4400CW Leasers used at the time they got them, still follows the used market model. If they would have gone new the would have been ES44 most likely. They still roster 4 U30C which have been doing the mine run from Eagle Mills to the ore dock in June and July. As reported on Michigan Railroads . com by engineer for LS&I. I have asked him and he said there is no plans to retire them any time soon. Unless there is a catastrophic failure. They have plenty of parts on hand from the retired ex DEEX units. Two of the U30C have been repainted.
When did North Shore pick up the lease on the 3 ES44AC. Back in Nov. Cliffs said they were idling production a North Shore until the market picked back up. I have not seen that happen. I just read the the ore trade is down on the lakes. So I don't see why Cliffs would lease engines for a operation that is idle. Plus they run train sets in DPU, one set each way. So I would think 4 units would be more in order.
Also what is the problem with the tonnages hauled? I don't understand. What dose it matter with the mines I never listed who owned the Canadian mines? Just the US ones, last time I checked CN dose not own the Missabe range mines. So how is that a factor in my examples? Yes Cliffs owns Tildon and Empire mines, but they also load out CN/DMIR trains as well there. They are also opening a new copper mine in the UP of Michigan. For which CN is relaying old right of way so the mine has rail access. So please explane how ownership that effects my examples.
Erik
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 27, 2013 5:01:07 GMT -5
I'm not saying failures as in massive failures, hours or even minutes of a locomotive not moving effects the whole operation. I can guarantee the SD60s and C40-8s CN has will have a higher availability than their SD45T-3 rebuilds and even if it's a small percent that small percent multiplies into dollars on the company's bottom line. Why is CN getting the SD60s and C40-8s? Fairly simple, they're cheap, quite modern and can haul more than the SD40s which allows them to bump SD40s completely off mainline duties. We'd be getting a bit far off topic straying from the original topic if we continue down this path, CSRR isn't a Class 1...The SD40 is still a good locomotive 40+ years after it was introduced and will be around till the EPA makes it hard to keep them. This speaks volumes as to why CN is getting the SD60s and C40-8s, they can perform the duties the SD40s generally do with a higher availability rating and using less fuel in the process. As for LS&I, the reason they haven't bought new AC units is because their operations are seasonal, the financial outlay is just not justified. I'd also doubt they'd sell off their old GEs, they'd be left with no backup if they did! www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=448206&nseq=2NSM picked up the lease on the ES44ACs earlier in June iirc with the units entering service in the last month. And you don't need 4 locomotives to run one train...the ES44ACs are run in 2-1 DPU setup as their power doesn't require any more than 3 units. They evidently need the bigger power.... As for the tonnages? It's the bottom line! QNSL and ArcelorMittal both run a couple hundred wagon long trains round the clock which adds up in the tonnages hauled and the company's balance. This sort of operation generates the capital required to purchase the latest and greatest motive power hence the ES44ACs and SD70ACes showing up on these operations. The integration of the mines and railroad in the one company reduces haulage costs (essentially to the break even point), this allows the company a higher share of the profits and thus the capital to improve and maintain their infrastructure, motive power, rolling stock, etc. If CSRR owned the mine served they'd have more in the coffers to throw at the railroad aspect.
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Post by 1fatrussian on Aug 27, 2013 6:50:17 GMT -5
Brian,
Don't get too wrapped up in the details, what I mean is, so what if they don't plan on getting to the copper until 2021, this is YOUR railroad, do what you want, there is plenty of copper still being mined in AZ to create traffic on your railroad, I see it nearly everyday. (I still like my idea of an ex-ATSF SD45-2, just sayin...).
Eric
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 8:10:57 GMT -5
Eric, gdrmco,
You have both produced an excellent debate. Reading your posts has been a great joy and a really good learning experience for me. It has definitely given me a lot to consider.
Eric, although you are correct that this in my railroad, I view it as a prototype railroad. The information you have supplied to me is priceless. You work in the area I am modeling.
Gdrmco, you also bring up some very valid points that could easily sway me :-).
It would be VERY easy for me to sit on the side and listen to what you both have to say and it would get me all giddy to think of all the new power I could use. My scenario is that my railroad is cheap. I have a very good friend who works for a regional or short line railroad. He and the railroad will remain nameless right now unless my friend wants to chime in. I get a lot of short line information from him. The corporation that owns this short line is wealthy. They make a lot of money, but the railroad and the decisions made is run cheap. I mean cheap as in we will spend $1000 to save $1. Because of that attitude, they end up spending $10,000 because they tried to save a $1. My railroad is a cross between how the Arizona & California and this railroad my friend works for. It is because I know these two railroads in the real world and they fit my scenario. A&C runs EMD power because it is cheap and parts are plentiful. At least that is what I was told when I visited with their chief mechanic back in the late 1990's. The stories my friend tells me about the short line he works for would make you slap your forehead and roll your eyes. Great stories.
In the story on my web page I state that CSR will be rebuilding the old Magma Arizona line. Not going to happen. They will evaluate the line, replace ties where needed and run it until it needs repair again. Broken rail, splice it. Splice it again and again until the FRA tells them they have to replace the whole piece. True story from my friends railroad. When I first visited my friend, track speed was set at 10mph because the track and ties were so crappy. It took us all day to go from one town to the next and back that was only 12 miles away by rail. You will notice that with my locomotives, they are built from actual prototypes. I do not add components. Even though my road is a desert railroad, I do not add air conditioners. Costs to much. if they come with air conditioners, then they stay. otherwise, open the door. One day when I lived in AZ I was watching an SP crew switch some cars in Chandler. it was a pair of SP38-2's. The engineer had all the doors and windows open. I asked if the air conditioner was good in the units. He said they were to loud and his air conditioner was an open door. That tells me that crews in Arizona get used to working outside. Air conditioners are a plus, but they can live without them too. I was told by the chief mechanic at the A&C that he wanted to replace the air conditioners on some of their new SD's at the time. Rail America would not allow the installation of any air conditioners on their locomotives and that no locomotive would have them installed. He stopped asking and just maintained them himself for his crews.
I am trying very hard to stay within my research for what a small railroad might do. The copper mine just happens to be on the line and will definitely be a windfall for the CSR, but it will not change the way the company is run. We have the necessary big power to run the mine. CSR does not have to take the loads all the way to the coast. The run to Wellton, AZ to interchange with the UP is 150 miles from the CSR yard in Phoenix and the mine load out is about another 60 miles from there. The concentrate cars are going to all be second hand Greenville 100T hoppers. Some may be rebuilt and painted and some may just be patched. Eventually all will be repainted at one time. When there truly is a need for new power, then we will shop again for second hand locomotives that meet our needs.
I will keep to the SD40-2 theme or SD40/45/45-2 rebuilds. Fits the company profile and my story line. Although, I really do appreciate the information on what the class ones are doing. What I did not want to do is have a "freakshow" roster with a bunch of one off unique style locomotives. A couple is OK, but no more than that. The SD50S may even come off the roster and be replaced with a rebuilt SD40/45. Especially since Athearn is most likely going to be putting those in their Genesis line. If not, I will use the Kato SD40 and a P2K SD45 shell on a Kato frame. Although the ex HAMMERSLEY IRON SD50S is one of those models I really want to build. So it will probably stay and maybe the CONRAIL SD40-2 will come off and be replaced by an SD40 rebuild.
Thanks for the enjoyable conversation. It truly is great.
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 27, 2013 8:30:02 GMT -5
I wish I could post something a bit more coherent and with some facts but my mind just isn't quite switched on at the moment and most facts and figures I have are too 'generic' (bit of googling would find most if not all....)
Thanks for the reply Brian, reading that I'd stick to my guns on the pair of SD60s as 510 and 511 as long term lease (and bought out in 2011 or so) Oakway units bought specifically for the copper service. Being the total haul from mine to interchange is ~210miles over what I assume isn't terribly difficult terrain a pair of SD60s would handle the train perfectly fine. Just those 2 on the concentrate rake, every empty trip from interchange to the main yard they could be inspected and serviced to keep them in working order without bringing too much disruption. Being originally on lease and then finally bought out they'd follow the cheap mantra and I would say you could have a bit of fun modelling them in ratty Oakway livery with a quick patch job (ain't no time or money for repaintin'!). It also appears the Oakways never got A/C so you can probably do some modelling of them with both cab doors open.
I agree with 1fatrussian, an ex-ATSF SD45-2 would be quite cool and probably one of the few units on the RR with an actual A/C.
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Post by Randy Earle on Aug 27, 2013 9:16:20 GMT -5
Brian, if your railroad is "cheap"...they would lease old power that wouldn't have too many doodads and electronics.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2013 9:58:30 GMT -5
Randy,
The 40-2's are not loaded with a lot of stuff. Again, referring to the railroad my friend works for, they got rid of their ex N&W SD40's. Scrapped them or sold them to a railroad in Mexico, they got rid of their POS SD50's and now have some SD40-2's. One is an ex Milwaukee unit another was what looked to me to be a catalog SD40-2. It was still in GATX paint when I saw it and I forget what other motive power they have. Next time I talk to him, I'll ask. But they are not doodaded up.
My 40-2's have not been -3'd. Still -2 or rebuilt to -2 specs.
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Post by Randy Earle on Aug 27, 2013 11:16:37 GMT -5
Doodaded...lol. That gave the spell checker fits.
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