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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 10:06:08 GMT -5
Hi Donnell,
Great to see you are on this list. Welcome aboard.
There are so many good arguments for gray and red and even something like yellow. I do like the utilitarian look of railroading. It is what interested me in the Penn Central. I have settled on the car and its details and the decal design is almost done.
I like contrast, but I do think the bright yellow is out. You have a great argument for painting them gray, but the color is going to be oxide/mineral red though for the contrast. The decals will be done in white with the exception of the state logo. It will be black with white lettering. I did the decal sheet so that I can do any car from the number series 100000 to 100999. The way I have done the decal sheet is I have to use two sheets, but two sheets will do 10 cars. The lube plates I will get from High Ball Graphics.
For those interested, I started a new video series last night. I have not published the first video yet, but will soon. I still have to finish the model work for this first part.
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Post by nsc409w on Aug 13, 2013 11:14:53 GMT -5
I know you are set on the covers for the cars but what about applying a surfactant to the loads to suppress the dust? Below is a link describing how BNSF and the coal companies work to mitigate the coal dust issue in the powder river basin. In a fiscal sense the surfactant may be expensive but it would remove the cost to maintain the holds and lower loading and unloading time. The Walthers cars would allow for higher load capacity and fewer cars. Just my opinion. www.bnsf.com/customers/what-can-i-ship/coal/coal-dust.htmlShane
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 11:43:11 GMT -5
Shane,
That is a VERY interesting article. As for the covers. Not set in stone. If I can come up with a better solution, it saves me modeling time and also for the railroad saves time and money for loading/unloading.
I really appreciate your input. Adds a new dimension to this. Part of the fun of proto-freelancing is learning about railroading and having to come up with solutions.
Thanks.
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Post by nsc409w on Aug 13, 2013 12:06:44 GMT -5
Minor correction on above post I meant to say maintain the covers* not maintain the holds. Autocorrect on an iPhone does wonderful things lol.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 12:28:19 GMT -5
This is why the material needs to be contained. Found this doing a search on "hazards of copper concentrate"
"General Description
Contains arsenic and lead sulfide in copper concentrates. Insoluble in water and denser than water. Primary hazard is to the environment. Immediate steps should be taken to limit spread to the environment. Byproduct of manufacturing processes. Properties vary depending on the components present."
ANYTHING like this traveling through California. Most definitely needs to be contained. Key phrase is "Primary hazard is to the environment."
Regardless of what type of car is used, the load HAS to be covered because of California environmental laws. There is no getting around that one.
I think I have come up with an even easier to model cover. They can be easily stacked and moved. Put large pins on the inside corner of the gondola. Use a flat steel plate maybe 1" to 1.5" thick. Plate lays inside the top chord flush with the top of the car. Installation and removal can be done with a magnet crane. Plate is heavy enough to remain in place, a strong wind cannot pick it up because it is set inside the car flush with the top. No special forms or dies have to be made to construct these hoods. Simply plate steel cut to size. Very easy to make and maintain and low cost.
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c415rock
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Post by c415rock on Aug 13, 2013 14:06:30 GMT -5
Brian, With your expatiation above, I think something else that needs to be considered is the Hazmat training and protection the crews would need for handling the loads. I.E. closing and opening the lids. If the load is a hazmat load as the state sees it. I am sure the have just as strict rules for crews handing it. Which can only cost $$$$$$. I would think the railroad, shipper, and end user. Would work together to come up with a automated way to open and close the lids, without crew being exposed to the load. With the idea that the cars are being rebuilt. It would only make sense to come up with a automated lid system. One of the slickest systems I have ever seen it the system that CN & ONR used on there barrel ore car. Which could be done to the ex rebuilt SP cars. There is a small rod and wheel attached to each lid and as it passes thur the loader and unloader it engages a guild and auto opens and closes. If you look at the photo links you will see the two cars with the lids closed and two with the lids open. It would become clear how the system works. I think it would be a simple modification for each car. Erik canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=cn346558&o=cnwww.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=56929freight.railfan.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=pwcx121954&o=pwcxfreight.railfan.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=pwcx121602&o=pwcx
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 15:41:48 GMT -5
You know, you are right. I could adopt the top portion of that design to the gondola. I'll look into this some more. Thanks for the photo links. Very helpful.
I could cast it as one pice that fits right inot the gon. Hmmmm. looks interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 15:55:39 GMT -5
Erik,
You really peaked my interest in this short barrel ore hopper. I wrote Sylvan Scale Models to ask about the availability of this car and the future availability. I do not want to commit to the car if it is going to be discontinued because I cannot afford to buy all I need at once (I need at least 100 cars to give the impression of a large operation). Probably just a few per month. If it is a sustanable product, then I think I will use it. Very unique, self operating and solid containment. It also looks to have tight fitting drop bottom doors.
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Aug 13, 2013 17:58:11 GMT -5
Sent you a pm on the Sylvan cars.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 10:35:09 GMT -5
Well, thanks to you all I am re-evaluating my hopper choice. I placed on order today a Sylvan Scale Models kit #HO-1044 Short Barrel Ore Hopper.
I emailed Sylvan Scale Models to ask about the availability of the kits and I was told that they keep selling and that they will have them available for a long time. So I ordered on to see the quality of the kit.
This car was suggested a few times to me. So I did some research on the car. This car definitely fits the bill. As some of you have pointed out, the car has an automated door opening system. This is a good thing and it is a simple system that appears to be low maintenance. Again as some have pointed out, this saves on time and reduces the need for a worker to be near the area where concentrate dust may be present. For unloading, it has trough doors at the bottom which means at the off loading sight, they do not need to open the top doors. The car fully contains the material in case of a derailment which makes it environment friendly. This car has all the ingredients of being the right choice.
It was mentioned to me by more than one person that an operation of this size and duration WOULD in fact warrant even a short line to purchase NEW cars. I was also told that even though a car design is maybe not in current production that if the car meets the needs, it can be built again. These cars were built by National Steel Car LTD. in Hamilton Ontario.
Now I just need to check out the quality of the car. Building them will not be an issue since I was going to have to build the ore gons anyway. So if the evaluation is good, I am going to go with these cars. Not only do they fit the bill for the type of car needed, they are cool looking cars too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 10:53:07 GMT -5
Doing a bit of calculating, I have chosen the short barrel design. it can handle 4 ton more of material than the long barrel design.
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c415rock
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Post by c415rock on Aug 14, 2013 12:18:50 GMT -5
Brian,
I know Clair personally and I think you will find his kits to be very detailed. All of his kits a pressure casted and he has very high standards. They build up very nice as long as you follow the directions and take your time. I own a few of his cabooses and freight cars, along with the Great lakes ore freighter and tug boat kits.
Fyi those photo link that I posted of the silver cars with the lids open, were rebuilt by Mid America Rail Car after the CN & ONR retired them. They now work in cement service in Alberta Canada.
Erik
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Post by Wayne Snyder on Aug 14, 2013 14:28:16 GMT -5
Looked at Sylvan Scale Models site and it does not show any rail cars. What do these look like?
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Post by stevef45 on Aug 14, 2013 15:23:01 GMT -5
i was going to ask the samething, i even binged it and foudn nothing.
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Post by emd16645 on Aug 14, 2013 15:29:50 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 17:25:23 GMT -5
They are not listed on their web site. They do nto even have a link to their price list. But, I was told by Claire to order them through a dealer.
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Post by 1fatrussian on Aug 23, 2013 7:18:11 GMT -5
Brian,
UP brings out copper concentrate from the mines south of Tucson in Greeneville 100 ton hoppers, a few years ago they were all SP/SSW or the old faded blue Golden West Service relettered back to either SP/SSW/UP. Some if not all are repainted into a mineral red color and wear AZER reporting marks, I see them quite often en-route to Magma AZ, they are always uncovered and generally are only half loaded with copper concentrate which is as you have said very heavy. Arizona Eastern also moves these over the UP mainline from Lordsburg NM to Bowie AZ once a day. Hope this helps in selecting a car for your road.
Eric
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 8:13:39 GMT -5
Eric,
This is Great information. And it is a huge help. Thank you VERY much. Is this currently going on today? I like the 100T Greenville hoppers. They are cool cars. But, what you explained is within the state of Arizona which has not yet adopted the severe restrictions of California. If it is already in concentrate form, then it has to be going somewhere to be smelted. Any idea where in AZ this would be happening? I can only think of maybe Hayden. I'll have to do a search today and see.
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Post by 1fatrussian on Aug 23, 2013 17:35:03 GMT -5
Brian,
I am pretty sure the concentrate comes off the Nogales Branch from the Sahaurita Mines south of Tucson and goes through Tucson and placed on the Magma Local which sets those cars out at Magma Jct where Copper Basin picks them up to get smelted at Hayden. The AZER does Basically the same thing from Clifton/Morenci over UP rails to Miami AZ. A lot of the old SP/SSW/GWS/UP cars have all been completely repainted and are wearing a very spartan AZER paint job. The ingots now move mainly by boxcar due to theft and vandalism, yes people have been trying to steal the ingots off the flat cars but as far as I know only succeeded in damaging their own vehicles. I tried to find some photos however there aren't too many out there and due to FRA rules I can't grab any while I am at work.
Eric
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 19:04:49 GMT -5
Thanks Eric. This really does help a lot. I understand why they can move the concentrate in open hoppers.
I am not saying for certain that California would require teh loads to be move in closed hoppers. It just makes sense with their very restrictive EPA laws. I am taking a stab at it that CA WOULD require closed hoppers or containers.
The Greenville hopper would be great though. I really like those littel 100T cars.
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