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Post by antlorch on Aug 10, 2013 20:14:11 GMT -5
The red would be cool, either one mostly because the gray ones would blend in with your motive power probably but with the red the power will really be stand offish.
And they would fade nice in the desert sun!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 20:25:47 GMT -5
What red?
Oxide red Mineral red
OR
Just plain red?
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Aug 10, 2013 20:56:19 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2013 21:10:56 GMT -5
Sorry Anthony, I did not fully read your response. OK, either red. Sounds good. I'll go with whichever one has a brighter red to it.
I have designed a simple locking mechanism for the hood. At each top corner of the car, there will be a box with a hole in it. The lid will have a large pin that fits into the hole. At the side of the box is another pin in the shape of a "T". After the lid is installed, a loadout crew will push the "T" pin through the lid pin and rotate 1/4 turn to lock it into a grove behind the lid pin. Very secure and uncomplicated.
Now I just need to design the shape of the hood and scratchbuild the prototype. It will have to have some sort of crane hook at the top center.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 19:55:05 GMT -5
Would it be reasonable that if a railroad liked a specific car design that they might contract with a car building company to build that design? For instance, say CSR and Resolution Copper Mining worked together on what type of railcar they wanted for concentrate hauling. Lets say they liked the design of the SP ore gondola and only needed it modified to have a lid. Lets say that there wee not enough cars available on the market to buy and get rebuilt. Would it be reasonable for them to get the designs for that specific ore car and have it built by a car builder?
I need to work up a scenario for using this car.
Thanks for any assistance.
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Aug 11, 2013 20:28:35 GMT -5
If there was enough profit for the RR they would have the cars built to maximize their profit or in some cases the shipper will have their own cars built or lease them. These unique cars were originally ordered by the Ontario Northland to ship ore from the mine directly to a steel mill www.railcarphotos.com/Search.php
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 21:24:23 GMT -5
I talked to a friend tonight who works occasionaly for a shortline road. I talk to him a lot about scenarios. He gave me a very good way to use these ore cars.
This is not a class one road, but he did mention that the size of the project WOULD justify new cars. My problem is with what is available in HO scale to model so either I build my own cars which I can do, but would take forever and a day to put my fleet together. Or use what my friend explained. CSR purchased a large number of these ex SP ore cars cheap. They are the right size and configuration for the operation. Send them to a car rebuilder and rebuild the car from the ground up. In many instances it is cheaper to rebuild the car than to have brand new ones built. The cars are virtually brand new after being rebuilt. They will get new frames, truck sets and brake equipement. The will be modified to accept hoods.Now I have to add this to my web site, but write it up better. Need to do a little more research on these cars to find out what has really happened to them.
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c415rock
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Post by c415rock on Aug 12, 2013 1:14:47 GMT -5
Hi Brian,
Here is something you might want to consider. Here is information on Hopper cars the D & H used to haul a very similar commodity to your copper loads. What is the reason the CSR would need to have hoods on the cars. Would it not slow down the loading and unloading process in real life? I can only think of one prototype operation that used hoppers with covers for any period of time (Big Stone Power). If you like I have a PDF. of how to Kitbash one of these car from a Walthers 100ton Greenville hopper. It also has some drawings and more data for the car. Just let me know and I can email to you.
From the late 1960’s and well into the late 1980’s - the Delaware and Hudson Railroad hauled a dense black powdery titanium based ore called ‘Ilmenite Ore’ from National Lead in Tahawus, NY. To handle the large volume of this ore, the D&H purchased an entire fleet of specialty ore cars from Bethlehem beginning in 1965. The first order of these bright yellow cars were numbered 101 to 240 – and the second order was numbered 241 to 364. For railfans, the spotting features between the two runs was indeed hard to spot: the first order of cars handled a capacity of 1947 cubic feet - while the second order built in 1966 handled a 1844 cubic feet capacity and featured a reinforcement rod positioned in the center of the inside of the car. The cars were otherwise identical. Through their years of service, the bright yellow cars quickly lost their luster, as the heavy service of hauling ore soon wore down the yellow paint scheme to a very dingy and rusty appearance!
A photo of how the prototype aged can be seen on the Fallen Flags website at:http://gelwood.railfan.net/dh/dh-hk139agd.jpg
If you might be interested, you can learn more about the National Lead Tahawus operation here at:http://www.mindat.org/loc-144736.html
Interestingly, some of these cars have actually outlived the D&H Railroad itself – and have been spotted handling various Maintenance of Way duties for other railroads thought out the country.
Erik
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 12, 2013 1:40:53 GMT -5
As a comparison, the GDRMCo this year started hauling copper concentrate (powdered) in containers from a hardstand loading point at Cloncurry to port in Townsville for export. The containers are 20'ers but only half the height of regular ISO containers and are designed to be loaded 'end on' (standing up on the non door end and loaded thru the door end) and to unload they are simply lifted by the non door end and the doors are opened. Image here of a similar operation hauling zinc ore in New South Wales: www.flickr.com/photos/raichase/5559301675/in/set-72157626298482344Might be somtehing to consider?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 8:17:01 GMT -5
Erik, gdrmco,
Both of your suggestions are excellent ideas. But I will address them.
First about the containers. When I first started investigating the concentrate transportation,I was going to use that idea. It is unique and interesting. But I would have to scratch build the containers and the cars. If it was just a couple cars, that would be a fun project. But I need at least 100 cars to give the impression of a large operation. I could easily scratch build the containers and cast them. I do not see an issue with that. But to scratch build the car and then try to cast it. Not going to happen. Yes, I could use an existing well type car or a repurposed 89' flat or something like that. Definitely an option. For limited space though, an 89' flat takes up a lot of that space.
As for why I need covers on my cars. Phoenix is a minimum of 370 miles from the coast and that coast is California. California has the most restrictive laws for transportation of any material they consider to cause cancer to anything. Copper concentrate is also a very fine granular material. Sort of like from dust size particles to sand. If you have ever traveled from Phoenix to San Diego or even Los Angeles, you will then know how much wind is blowing across the desert. It is a lot and sometimes pretty strong. Want to retain as much of this material from load out to unloading as possible. Copper concentrate is VERY heavy material per cu. ft. I dare say that you could not load a Greenville hopper even half way. I have considered that hopper though as well. Used to have three of them.
Now for personal preferences. I really do like the Walthers 100T Greenville hopper. It is a cool looking car and a unit train of them would be really cool. I don't think it fits the bill for this operation though. The 89' repurposed flats with dumpster like containers, again cool and unique. But I really like the looks of the traditional ore jenny. and they fit the bill for load capacity. We can utilize the entire capacity of the car and still be within its limits. The gondola is contained so there is no leakage from any drop doors. The hoods are a necessary part of modern railroading due to EPA standards, operating in California and just simple protection of the load.
The only thing I really need to scratch build are the hoods. I am looking at getting a hobby vacuum forming machine to make these. With this machine, I only need to make one master and I can make loads of hoods easy and fast.
I really appreciate the ideas help and discussion on this. Loads of fun and lots of learning.
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Post by MitchGDRMCo on Aug 12, 2013 8:42:16 GMT -5
40' flats or short gons with enough interior space are all you need, the longest flats I'll be using won't be longer than 60'.
As for your personal wants, I guess with the GDRMCo already having a vast number of ore hoppers already I'm not inclined myself to have even more. Coal is hauled in rotary gons on the GDRMCo and the zinc concentrate trains use purpose built tank cars to carry it in liquid form and zinc ferrite is shipped in containers and open gons (worlds shortest heavy haul? only 15 or so km for the open gon train).
And as for colour I'd go with grey, fits with the motive power and is distinctive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 9:15:34 GMT -5
I have given thought to the concentrate slurry and haul it in tank cars. Water is a precious commodity in AZ and I think it would not be cost effective to use the water slurry transport method.
I am going to use either oxide red or mineral red. I like the contrast. I will use the brighter of the two. Although, I was thinking of bright yellow too. But I think one of the reds would be better.
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Post by stevef45 on Aug 12, 2013 10:01:37 GMT -5
Bright yellow or a mustard yellow, then weather the heck out of them. To me, and this is just my opinion, a bright red or red painted car wouldn't look good.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 10:31:37 GMT -5
OK Stevef45. Hmmm, I am wondering just where is this bright yellow influence coming from .
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Post by stevef45 on Aug 12, 2013 13:35:04 GMT -5
not a bright yellow, i'de say close to what the d&h used in that photo but give it a nice weathering.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 18:19:41 GMT -5
The good news is the G-100_1 ore gons were all scrapped. That means they are open game fo rthe Copper State Railway to have purchased them cheap and do a 100% rebuild on them. Sweet!
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Post by Canadian Atlantic Railway on Aug 12, 2013 20:31:00 GMT -5
That is good news! Do you have a drawing of the cover that you could share?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2013 20:53:12 GMT -5
I do not have a design fo rthem yet, but they will be pretty basic. Fit over the top chord and have a slight curvature over the top with about three reinforcing ribs.
When I get to that point, I will post photos.
Talk to my friend about these cars tonight to help figure out the details. He told me to help with the rebuild and simplify the car a little would be to remove the ladders from the car ends and replace the end detail with a grated crossover with hand grab. Side ladders will remainas well as position of brake wheel.
The cars will get ExactRail 70T ACF ride control truck sets. Moloco non cushioned draft gear and brake details. I am almost done with the decal layout.
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sd80mac
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Post by sd80mac on Aug 13, 2013 8:44:18 GMT -5
Hi Brian,
I was reading this thread and noted where you were trying to decide which color to paint you ore cars. You stated that you were leaning toward light gray with black lettering, and I say go with it! Not only that, if you want some variance or contrast in your unit train, add in some darker gray cars with white lettering. The darker gray cars could represent an additional order of rebuilt cars perhaps by a second supplier, or the same supplier that may have changed paint suppliers or couldn't get the same exact paint as on the first order of rebuilds.
I think the gray will weather very nicely, and give the train a very lackluster, utilitarian look, which ironically will enhance the realism and plausibility of your fictional railroad.
Donnell
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Post by stevef45 on Aug 13, 2013 9:14:40 GMT -5
Hi Brian,
I was reading this thread and noted where you were trying to decide which color to paint you ore cars. You stated that you were leaning toward light gray with black lettering, and I say go with it! Not only that, if you want some variance or contrast in your unit train, add in some darker gray cars with white lettering. The darker gray cars could represent an additional order of rebuilt cars perhaps by a second supplier, or the same supplier that may have changed paint suppliers or couldn't get the same exact paint as on the first order of rebuilds.
I think the gray will weather very nicely, and give the train a very lackluster, utilitarian look, which ironically will enhance the realism and plausibility of your fictional railroad.
Donnell I like this idea, Have like first gen cars one color, then do second and third generation of cars different colors.
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