c415rock
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"Linking the East with the West"
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Post by c415rock on Aug 24, 2012 22:57:40 GMT -5
Josh, The EL units were U23B. EL purchase order #1465 road number 2301- 2320 according to official GE papers. They were completed in 1975 with short term financing guaranteed by the USRA. The EL was to go to Chessie and did not become a designated part of CR unit 1976. When that fell apart the EL trustees decided they could not handle the added burden of the lease and canceled the order. The units then went to the L&N as there 2800 class of U23B's Here is a link to a GE Paint Diagram for the EL U23B's el-list.railfan.net/smlu23b.jpgErik
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Post by danielsokyrail on Aug 25, 2012 2:56:55 GMT -5
I knew there was something with the sd35s. I wasn't 100% on what they were changed to though. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Post by jmlaboda on Aug 25, 2012 9:04:58 GMT -5
"The EL was to go to Chessie and did not become a designated part of CR unit 1976. When that fell apart the EL trustees decided they could not handle the added burden of the lease and canceled the order. The units then went to the L&N as there 2800 class of U23B's"
Curious... considering that these units were built in late-74/early-75 that they were cancelled in '76.
"The initial order of MILW SD40-2s was supposed to be SD38-2s to reduce weight and since the higher horsepower was not necessarily needed on lightweight trackage on the western part of the system where they were initially slated to go. EMD said they could build a SD40-2 to fit MILW's weight requirements so MILW went with the SD40-2."
The difference between a SD38-2 and a SD40-2 would have been minimal since either could be ballasted as heavily or as lightly as needed. The weight difference between a turbocharger and a roots blower would not have been all that great.
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c415rock
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"Linking the East with the West"
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Post by c415rock on Aug 26, 2012 14:14:51 GMT -5
Hi Jerry,
I think what I had posted was not very clear.
The Erie Lackawanna going to Chessie fell thru in early 74. There were issues with the unions and Chessie was not taking the entire system.
So at point the trustees pulled the plug on the lease. Because now they needed to scramble to find a way to be included into Conrail.
According to the info I have on hand L&N #2800 was the first of the EL ordered units built 1-75.
Hope this clears things up. Erik
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krobar
Superintendent
Posts: 175
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Post by krobar on Aug 30, 2012 16:44:11 GMT -5
I've never seen anywhere the that the Reading was looking at RS27s. They did end up with 10 C424s though. The CNJ was looking for new EMDs, SW1500s and GP38-2s. I don't remember the total number of units but the road numbers would have been 1100s for the SW's and 2000s for the Geeps. They would have come in the red and white scheme. The deal fell through because the bankruptcy trustees said no to the deal. So the CNJ ended up with a used Alco RS2 (ex SP&S) and RS3s from the Reading and SP&S. The Lehigh Valley wanted more C420s but the Pennsy said no and gave them used RS11s.
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Post by chessie77 on Aug 30, 2012 21:45:13 GMT -5
:)Krobar, the Pennsy leased the Lehigh Valley 8 RS11s in March 1964 ( 2 were returned later) and the C420s came in November 1964.
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Post by roadkill on Sept 7, 2012 17:15:09 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the Western Maryland considered 5 C420s, but went with 5 GP35s due to B&O's gaining control of the road. Those would have looked great in red/white/black...
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Post by roadkill on Sept 7, 2012 17:38:32 GMT -5
Josh, The EL units were U23B. EL purchase order #1465 road number 2301- 2320 according to official GE papers. They were completed in 1975 with short term financing guaranteed by the USRA. The EL was to go to Chessie and did not become a designated part of CR unit 1976. When that fell apart the EL trustees decided they could not handle the added burden of the lease and canceled the order. The units then went to the L&N as there 2800 class of U23B's Here is a link to a GE Paint Diagram for the EL U23B's el-list.railfan.net/smlu23b.jpgErik Do the GE papers mention trucks? I see the L&N 2800 series U23Bs have FB2 trucks. I'm considering building one of these...
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c415rock
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"Linking the East with the West"
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Post by c415rock on Sept 8, 2012 0:22:31 GMT -5
RoadKill,
I don't have any info on the trucks, but with that said we can come to some educated guesses.
1. The EL did order the units with GTA-11 generators which is AC/DC and used with the FB2 and ultimately delivered with to the L&N.
2. By 1974 most locomotive customers were specifying AC/DC transmission, and GE would probably not have been happy to have twenty brand-new GT581 lying around-- so (since I assume that the generators would ready for installation before the locomotives were allowed to take up space in Building 10)
3. FB-2 trucks were standard on L&N.
4.FB-2 was the standard truck fo GE (Except when there were trade-in trucks, I suspect they were NOT an extra-cost option, since impecunious customers like the Milwaukee got FB-2 on their U23B.) AC/DC transmission was also standard on L&N U23B (except for the first few inherited from the Monon), and this, I think, WAS an extra-cost option. (Evidence: the poor bought straight DC units: Mexican railroads got DC U23B late in the model'shistory, at a time when most orders were for AC/DC.)
5. So with the L&N history of these units and the little info that we have from the EL order we can assume they were ordered with FB-2 trucks.
If you go forward with this project. I would love to see some photo's when you get them done. I plan on doing some but that is way down the line. I have SD & SDP45's to tackle first.
Hope this helps Erik
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Post by roadkill on Sept 10, 2012 14:41:26 GMT -5
My thinking, however flawed it is, is that the EL would have used the drop-equalized truck since they already had experience with them under the U25Bs, and swapping out trucks usually a no-brainer (see CR's U36Bs) unless there is major reworking involved (see Southern's and Ann Arbor's GP35s).
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c415rock
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"Linking the East with the West"
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Post by c415rock on Sept 10, 2012 16:40:03 GMT -5
Roadkill,
You do have a point, but the generators the EL units were ordered with would not work in the ARR truck.
Plus EL did not trade in any units for the trucks to be reused all the ones you mentioned did. Ann Arbor traded in FA 2 & the Southern traded in RS units.
The EL was also in the process of rebuilding there RS fleet to replace the aging switchers fleet. So it would not have been a benefit to trading the units in. Because they would have to purchase new units to replace the switchers. Also the rebuild program was successful because Conrail carried it over after the merger. I know some will say well they had to because they needed all the power they could get. With that said if it was not a good rebuild program I don't think Conrail would continue to do it.
The great thing in all this is that it is model railroading. So if you want to build them with ARR trucks do it. Like I always say if you like it do it. It's is your railroad. ;D
Have fun with this project! And always if can help just ask.
Erik
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Post by roadkill on Sept 10, 2012 18:52:52 GMT -5
I guess my only question is why would a generator make one truck unusable? GE's for many years used the rock-dependable 752 traction motor in all their truck styles, (even in units using refurbished Blombergs) and it was used in all U-boat construction regardless of whether the locomotive had a DC generator or an AC traction alternator. Odd, IMHO.
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c415rock
Moderator
"Linking the East with the West"
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Post by c415rock on Sept 10, 2012 19:59:22 GMT -5
Roadkill,
From what I have read it is because it AC/DC. I am by no means a expert and I am sure some of the guys here that work for the RR may be able to answer that question much better than I can.
Erik
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Post by jmlaboda on Sept 11, 2012 7:05:23 GMT -5
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Post by simulatortrain on Sept 11, 2012 10:19:22 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the Western Maryland considered 5 C420s, but went with 5 GP35s due to B&O's gaining control of the road. Those would have looked great in red/white/black... That's pretty wild, do you know where you saw that? It seems strange that they would return to ALCo after having basically become an all-EMD roster, but who knows. Some other WM what-ifs I remember hearing about were E8s and SD45s, and a friend of mine remembers seeing a circus-painted RS3 in 1979, just a few months before they were retired.
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Rudy Garbely
Chairman
Modeling Conrail from 1976-1979 in HO scale.
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Post by Rudy Garbely on Sept 11, 2012 20:18:34 GMT -5
The Lehigh Valley wanted more C420s but the Pennsy said no and gave them used RS11s. The LV wanted more C420s, but couldn't afford them! They were already taking out loans to finance the 12 they got. As far as the EL/Chessie merger, it fell apart in mid-1975 according to Hays Watkins, the chairman of Chessie System.
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Rudy Garbely
Chairman
Modeling Conrail from 1976-1979 in HO scale.
Posts: 1,073
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Post by Rudy Garbely on Sept 11, 2012 20:21:24 GMT -5
That was the only one that EL ever completed pre-merger. It became CR #9998.
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c415rock
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"Linking the East with the West"
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Post by c415rock on Sept 11, 2012 22:22:07 GMT -5
Yes you are correct in the fact that EL program was not carried over per say by Conrail. But the fact is it was, now I will explain.
When the rebuild program was moved back to Juanita (the RS3m's birth place)[/i][/u] from Dewitt. The shops were tasked with finding a way to continue the program without the cost of modifying the hood to except the 567 Prime mover. They turned to the EL RS3m unit which Hornell rebuilt(in 1975) by redesigning the exhaust manifold on the 567 so the original hood could be reused with out modification.
This is how I make the statement it was a success. Even though Juanita rebuilt the remaining RS3m's they are still called Dewitt Geeps, like wise the RS3m of the EL was carried over by Conrail and was successful.
Erik
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Post by roadkill on Sept 12, 2012 21:06:56 GMT -5
There was a second RS3 in process at the Hornell shops at merger time, it, like the 1027, used a 12 cylinder 567 out of a retired E8. Had EL survived it's a safe bet more RS3 re-engine jobs would have been built.
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Post by roadkill on Sept 12, 2012 21:09:34 GMT -5
I read somewhere that the Western Maryland considered 5 C420s, but went with 5 GP35s due to B&O's gaining control of the road. Those would have looked great in red/white/black... That's pretty wild, do you know where you saw that? It seems strange that they would return to ALCo after having basically become an all-EMD roster, but who knows. Some other WM what-ifs I remember hearing about were E8s and SD45s, and a friend of mine remembers seeing a circus-painted RS3 in 1979, just a few months before they were retired. WM got stellar service out of their RS3s, so another Alco purchase doesn't seem all that odd. IIRC it was in the old Jahn/Johnson "Western Maryland Diesels" book that referenced that bit of info.
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